Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

And Sotos and Oceanside50 have just shown what ignorant bigoted narrow minded people they are, when unable to respond in substance they play the race card and otherwise try to avoid the issues.

Just as I predicted would occur when someone is challenging their world view. Not one shred of rational argument.

While what you did was post some links you found online and add the disclaimer "without responsibility for the accuracy" ZERO rational arguments and ZERO substance from you!

Oh please! I suppose you are going to tell us that your posts are full of substance and accurate instead of silly innuendos and prejudiced information about the US and UK whilst Greece is faultless?

Pull the other one!

What can be more substantial and factual from experiencing reality? A 15 minutes drive from where I live my free movement on my own island is halted by barbed wire and fences that the British have placed on territory of our island that they claim is theirs!! Driving a bit further and I can already see the Turkish flag on Pentadaktilos... reminding us that the Turkish invaders occupy a third of our island. The enemies of our island are MORE THAN OBVIOUS and they have been screwing Cyprus long before any of the excuses they now use existed. You have to be blind to miss the obvious... unless of course you are a traitor and you are consciously try to absolve our enemies from the blame they so obviously have

[Paphitis]

And Sotos and Oceanside50 have just shown what ignorant bigoted narrow minded people they are, when unable to respond in substance they play the race card and otherwise try to avoid the issues.

Just as I predicted would occur when someone is challenging their world view. Not one shred of rational argument.

While what you did was post some links you found online and add the disclaimer "without responsibility for the accuracy" ZERO rational arguments and ZERO substance from you!

Oh please! I suppose you are going to tell us that your posts are full of substance and accurate instead of silly innuendos and prejudiced information about the US and UK whilst Greece is faultless?

Pull the other one!

What can be more substantial and factual from experiencing reality? A 15 minutes drive from where I live my free movement on my own island is halted by barbed wire and fences that the British have placed on territory of our island that they claim is theirs!! Driving a bit further and I can already see the Turkish flag on Pentadaktilos... reminding us that the Turkish invaders occupy a third of our island. The enemies of our island are MORE THAN OBVIOUS and they have been screwing Cyprus long before any of the excuses they now use existed. You have to be blind to miss the obvious... unless of course you are a traitor and you are consciously try to absolve our enemies from the blame they so obviously have

The SBAs are British Territory and they have put Military Bases there with Barbed Wire around them just like what you would see around any Military Establishment around the world. Makarios signed the agreement which legitimizes their existence. However, I do not like the fact they exist in Cyprus just like you do not. Just because they exist, does not mean the UK is our enemy. That is just nonsense!

But, that's not what I am talking about!

Everything to you is Black Hat or White Hat just like in all those John Wayne Western Movies.

Black Hat = US/UK despite not providing any sources like I have.
White Hat = Greece

We all agree that Turkey is of course very Black Hat!!!

This is what compromises you when discussing the Cyprus Issue.

And please stop the theatrics about traitors, Cypriotness, and personal attacks like talking about family or where a person resides or is born as if to say that their opinion or analysis is compromised! It does nothing for you as a person.

[Sotos]

The fact is that it is Turkey and UK who occupy parts of our island. The Turks took the land they occupy with invasion, the British took the land they occupy by blackmail. None of them has any rights on Cyprus territory as far as I am concerned because in both cases they took that land against our will.

Black Hat = US/UK despite not providing any sources like I have.

What sources do you want when you can see with your own eyes their troops occupying parts of our island and claiming that they belong to them????? If you can see a lifeless body with no head do you need a death certificate to believe that it is dead?

White Hat = Greece

The only bad thing that Greece has ever done in the case of Cyprus was helping the coop ... and that was done by unelected dictators many decades ago. Some posts ago you said about the Americans "I don't think it is worthwhile holding this perpetual grudge". And even for the Turks you said "We can also destroy the animosity towards Turkey one day. Why not?". So why this perpetual grudge and unjustified animosity against Greece?? Today and for many decades Greece is more than "White Hat" for Cyprus... do you know any other country in the world that supports Cyprus more than Greece... I would really like to know!!!

And please stop the theatrics about traitors, Cypriotness, and personal attacks like talking about family or where a person resides or is born as if to say that their opinion or analysis is compromised! It does nothing for you as a person.

I didn't even stoop at your low level... My response was the most polite possible after calling us baboons and all the other nasty things you said. There was no personal attack in what I said about Cypriotness relating to where a person was born and raised. Didn't you even claim that you are "native Australian"?

[Paphitis]

The fact is that it is Turkey and UK who occupy parts of our island. The Turks took the land they occupy with invasion, the British took the land they occupy by blackmail. None of them has any rights on Cyprus territory as far as I am concerned because in both cases they took that land against our will.

Occupation by definition denotes illegitimacy. The SBAs are not an occupation.

What sources do you want when you can see with your own eyes their troops occupying parts of our island and claiming that they belong to them????? If you can see a lifeless body with no head do you need a death certificate to believe that it is dead?

I want to see the sources you have that prove to me that the US and UK should be my enemy. I have helped you with one of them as they were complicit, but even so, why should Cyprus maintain any animosity when it is probably far more constructive to form strong ties for the future of all future generations on the island?

The only bad thing that Greece has ever done in the case of Cyprus was helping the coop ... and that was done by unelected dictators many decades ago. Some posts ago you said about the Americans "I don't think it is worthwhile holding this perpetual grudge". And even for the Turks you said "We can also destroy the animosity towards Turkey one day. Why not?". So why this perpetual grudge and unjustified animosity against Greece?? Today and for many decades Greece is more than "White Hat" for Cyprus... do you know any other country in the world that supports Cyprus more than Greece... I would really like to know!!!

I am having a hard time finding anything good that Greece has done or achieved for Cyprus. Maybe you can tell me.

The Coup was even conducted on the orders of the Junta in Athens, with only some slight hints of US complicity.

I don't have any perpetual grudge or animosity with Greece. If they do something constructive for us, like I believe they should, then I will love Greece like anything. In fact, I love Greece like anything now.

The dictators in Greece were at certain points extremely popular in Greece, and also fully recognised as the Government of Greece during the period. You can't erase that part of Greek history because you don't like it or are not proud of it. Metaxas was a dictator as well.

I didn't even stoop at your low level... My response was the most polite possible after calling us baboons and all the other nasty things you said. There was no personal attack in what I said about Cypriotness relating to where a person was born and raised. Didn't you even claim that you are "native Australian"?

Unfortunately you did stoop very low!

When I said baboon, I was not calling you one, but talking in a figurative manner about historical events brought about in the past over sheer stupidity!

In other words, I believe certain things were just real dumb, and because I believe they are dumb, I may say things like "you baboons" or "you morons" or something of that nature to attribute to the idiots that did things in the past, which you couldn't write about if you tried, that resulted in the loss of nearly half of the island.

It was not a personal attack on you or anyone else.

However, attacking someone because of where they live or where they were born or their parents is personal. You don't know who you are talking to. It might be highly likely that this person is from a family of refugees that lost everything in the war. It might be a young Cypriot trying to connect with roots and has never been to Cyprus. OK?

[supporttheunderdog]

As is so common one has the blame game with the usual suspects of CF pointing the finger at various other usual suspects about eg events in Greece in 1967 and those in Cyprus in 1974, and in particular with the various conspiracy theories involving the USA and UK.

there are however a number of Academic papers which seek to challenge the cherished views of some, which are worth at least reading.

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/hellenicObservatory/pdf/3rd_Symposium/PAPERS/CONSTANDINOS_ANDREAS.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/2343038/British_Non-Intervention_in_the_Cyprus_Crisis_of_1974
http://www3.nd.edu/~dlindley/handouts/US%20role%20in%20Cyprus%20Crises.pdf

Already I can forsee the usual abusive response of some to those who seek to challenge their particular close- minded world view: the shoot the messenger scenario, which as usual relies more on abuse of the author to try to carry the day, without actually producing objective argument.

The third is a real peach, suggesting as it does that the events of 1974 were NOT part of some grand plan by Kissinger. see p 43 onwards...the authors claim to have seen and used recently released items, which O'malley and his co-author did not have access to.

The entire document might be a CIA piece of disinformation, it might not be, I pass it and the others on as read and without responsibility for the accuracy,.

btw a subscription to the Academia site is free....

BTW STUD, I found O'Malley's research and work to be quite good and well backed up with evidence and official records and data. Not all of it was referenced to official sources though.

Wenzke and Lindley suggest that that their conclusions are flawed as they may not have had complete access to all records while Woodward describes them as sensationalist .
Certainly a conspiracy theory would sell more books than a lack of conspiracy theory.

What I think upsets some is that it challenges their world view, in particular their carefully nurtured prejudices and some like eg Sotos find it hard to accept that what they have been taught might be wrong.

[Oceanside50]

And Sotos and Oceanside50 have just shown what ignorant bigoted narrow minded people they are, when unable to respond in substance they play the race card and otherwise try to avoid the issues.

Just as I predicted would occur when someone is challenging their world view. Not one shred of rational argument.

For the record I have always advocated that a Cyprus solution must involve dissolution of the SBA.

..what happened to the Brits obligation to defend Cyprus when Turks poured in?

[supporttheunderdog]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

[GreekIslandGirl]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

Some student's Masters thesis, arguing for excuses as to why Britain failed its obligations, is not proof this was the case no matter how much you want to apologise for their inadequacies.

What next as "proof" - a GCSE "horrible histories" essay by some 15 year old?

[supporttheunderdog]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

Some student's Masters thesis, arguing for excuses as to why Britain failed its obligations, is not proof this was the case no matter how much you want to apologise for their inadequacies.

What next as "proof" - a GCSE "horrible histories" essay by some 15 year old?

Just the narrow minded bigoted argument I expected from you . Nothing of substance which challenges the case as argued. This just shows how sad and pathetic you are, someone who thinks they are a dinosaur remnant ie , a reptile or a bird not a mammal. Shows the quality of your bird brained thinking, the birds being the true dinosaur remnants.

[kurupetos]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

That's utter bollocks. How could Makarios just cancel the treaty of Guarantee without the consent of all parties (Greece, Turkey, UK)?

In the event of any breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, the United Kingdom, and Turkey undertake to consult together, with a view to making representations, or taking the necessary steps to ensure observance of those provisions. In so far as common or concerted action may prove impossible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim Of re-establishing the state of affairs established by the present Treaty.