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[zan]

Don't you know that women older than your mother are being robbed and stabbed in the TRNC on a weekly basis?Is it safe to live in a state where gambling,prostitution,and drug pushing are the primary sources of income?Where poor unfortunate souls are being employed with slave wages on illegal building projects?Where trade unionist (women included)can get kicked and punched by "special forces" for trying to make a protest?Where journalists are gunned down like dogs in the street?Where newspaper offices get bombed in the middle of the night?

Birkibrisli, the way you are describing the TRNC I am getting the impression that you are actually talking about Iraq in terms of violance, North Korea in terms of oppression and Cuba in terms of state control.

bg_ you forgot a united Cyprus in terms of a utopia where all is well!

[BirKibrisli]

I am sorry,bg_turk,but that is the reality as I see it.
I don't care that there might be other places in the world worse off than the people living in the TRNC.I want what is best for my country.
No yes buts...No terror scripts like GCs as Vampires waiting to jump on poor defenceless TCs...I won't buy them any more.
There is more than one way of killing off a community.And the far more sinister way of doing it is the slow moral and social and historical decline which is being practiced on the TCs now. I'd rather take the risk of becoming a second class citizen in a free Cyprus(but living proudly as a human being),than watching a whole community disappear in their own moral and political bankruptcy.If that is not palatable to some people,so be it.

[zan]

I am sorry,bg_turk,but that is the reality as I see it.
I don't care that there might be other places in the world worse off than the people living in the TRNC.I want what is best for my country.
No yes buts...No terror scripts like GCs as Vampires waiting to jump on poor defenceless TCs...I won't buy them any more.
There is more than one way of killing off a community.And the far more sinister way of doing it is the slow moral and social and historical decline which is being practiced on the TCs now. I'd rather take the risk of becoming a second class citizen in a free Cyprus(but living proudly as a human being),than watching a whole community disappear in their own moral and political bankruptcy.If that is not palatable to some people,so be it.

Now who is being the fatalist? So we are the same after all. The only thing that separates us is the fact that I think that Unification will bring disaster and you think that the TRNC cannot look after it self and therefore fall apart. Well let me turn the optimist’s table and say that I think the TRNC will do fantastically well. They will grow democracy like wild flower and be a respected member of the EU along with Turkey. Their human rights record will be a credit to the union. They will make Cyprus a proud place at the same time as the GCs in the south. Shoot me down Birkibrisli. Tell me my dream is unattainable. Tell me I am stupid for thinking this way, don’t just hint at it. We Cypriots are alike except I have not completely given up on my own race.

[BirKibrisli]

Zan,I know we are the same ,gardash.
And I know you want what is best for our homeland.
You say I have given up on my race.I say it is you who have given up on your own race.Or rather,you never really accepted that you belong to your own race,the Cypriot race.We can play games on the definition of race till the cows come home,but that will not change the fact that most TCs had given up on their own people,when they walked away from the RoC.I don't believe your dream is attainable,not permanently.We might be able to force a solution (like they did in 1960) on GCs,but at best it will be tolerated only with a great deal of bitterness and resentment.And when the opportunity arises,when the balance of power changes,nothing will stop another worse case of bloodshedding.
You can't grow democracy like wild flower in a state captured by force of arms from the majority of its people.You can't foster human rights and equal opportunity in a state which denies that to its former occupants.
You can't provide justice on earth for only some of your people.Your justice will be a mirage,seen only by certain eyes,the minority eyes.
The majority will see and live with a huge injustice which will poison every attempt at peaceful coexistense in our tiny homeland.We either unite under the Cyprus flag,and try to forge a Cypriot nation out of the present ashes,or you can kiss goodbye any peaceful existence for generations to come.We must be brave so our children can benefit from our past pain and suffering.

[Vassos1]

Kifeas,

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your lengthy reply.

1) Your story in paragraph No.8 regarding the Turkish Cypriot who ran ahead of the Turkish Battalion and saved a Greek Village, although touching, was clearly not only a case of a Turkish Cypriot being good to his neighbour, but more like a person fulfilling his humanitarian duties. In other words, the actions of that Turkish Cypriot does not justify why two peoples of two totally different ethnic backgrounds should be forced to live together. Please answer this, should the Czechs and Slovakians unite because some of their citizens, at some point in history, helped or saved one-another. The actions of that Turkish Cypriot proved only one thing, and that was that he felt it right in himself as a person to save another person/ or persons, whether they were Greek, Nigerian, Israeli, Palestinian or any other. Please refrain from picking on these small heroic incidents in order to falsely claim that Greek and Turkish Cypriots are better off by uniting under one government. Your reasons for a United Federal government for Cyprus is baseless and proves to me how narrow minded you are. Please wake up and smell the roses.

2) Please, we have never lived as one in the first place. As I may have mentioned in my previous postings, we had Greek Schools and the Turkish Cypriots had their own versions, we went to Church and they went to their Mosques, we only said hello to each other if it was necessary. Can you actually remember a time when we really got on, peacefully as one, as in all my years, someone, somewhere was either shot, slaughtered, picked-on or at least bullied. We are different from the Turkish Cypriots Kifeas, and the fact that almost no “Mass” violence or ethnic-disturbance has happened in the last 30 or so years is only because we now respect each of our political States, its laws and its BOUNDARIES. Like any other peoples who visit other states. This is why we get along in the UK, it’s simply because we live under a British roof and not a Greek or Turkish one. We very seldom inter-marry, or adopt each other’s faiths or traditions. We simply respect each other as FRIENDS; people you say “Hello” in the street to, or even people you may work or study with. I even visit a few of my Turkish Cypriot friends in the café and in their houses, but I always stay clear of discussing the real issues concerning the Cyprus problem. We occasionally blame the British for their policy of Rule and Divide, but at the end of the day, we know our position on the Cyprus problem; both communities lost many lives in an inter-communal CONFLICT. Unifying us will re-ignite old wounds and later cause our children to repeat what history has taught us, to respect each ethnic domain’s sensitivities. We, as Greek Cypriots have them, and the Turkish Cypriots have theirs.

3) Your false dreams of unification are only adopted by a few, and those Greek and Turkish liberals should either re-read the history of the world, or move to another country.

Kifeas Said,
4)

“Have you ever wondered how much poorer and plain our lives could /would be if loosing the TC element from our culture and society?”

I fail to understand what it is that you mean here, as by accepting a formula based on two states, we will actually be opening up a new era or partnership based on respect. The respect we will offer one-another’s sovereignty. The Turkish Cypriots know too well that they will never be a partner of 50% of the Republic of Cyprus, how can they be when they only amount to 18% of the population of Cyprus. It is this “Minority” status that will one day draw our Greek Cypriot children into another conflict with them. My suggestions are based on the search for a PEACEFUL means to the Cyprus problem, a realistic and honest way of solving this mountainous task for the UN, EU, UK and the US.

5) Please Kifeas, don’t patronize me about me being bothered about the TCs turning their backs on us and pointing their guns in 1974. I was just referring to the fact that there are, and will always be people in every nation who are fanatical, nationalistic or even racist. With the Greek and Turkish element to our supposedly “Cypriot” society, both mainland countries’ nationalist supporters are very influential. It is the Security and Peaceful aspects of a two-republic solution that I am embarking on, and not the legalization of the Turkish Invasion or removing the TC element of the ROC. A two-republic formula will allow the Turkish Cypriots (and us) to economically prepare for perhaps a future federation, to be able to BUILD A NEW HISTORY of good partnership agreements, trust. We may even be able to refer to the events from 1955 to the late 1990’s (please do not forget about the Greek Cypriot who was shot off the flag pole) at some point in the future as acceptable mistakes of an unfortunate era.

6) Other than that, I think that any Cyprus agreement based on a Federal structure will need many more decades of “Fine Tuning”, and that is if we choose to accept certain realities of today. Please just look at Europe in order to understand what will, and can work for Cyprus today.

7) There are also issues concerning the huge language barrier. In my experience, most of the nationalists of each community are usually the ones who refuse to learn the language of the other community (and we have 76% of our population based on that way of thinking). In London, people learn how to speak English and then their ethnically native language of Greek, Turkish, Indian, Chinese etc at home or in a Weekend school. Because Cyprus has NO common language, please do not tell me that each community will be FORCED to learn the language of their neighboring mainland country. Are you honestly saying that each Greek and Turkish Cypriot would be required to learn Greek and Turkish as a compulsory lesson at school? The 82% of Greek Cypriot will actually all have to learn how to speak Turkish because only 18% of the island’s population speaks it. I AM SO FACINATED HOW UNREALISTIC some of you pro-unification supporters are when it boils down to the real issues. Are you honestly telling me that my nephew should now learn how to speak Greek, Turkish, and English in order to be able to live in Cyprus? This reality, according to pro-unification supporters, is the very reason why the so-called Annan Plan will always fail. Communism, for some strange reason springs to my mind. Please do not FORCE a solution on someone, as the only natural and systematic ANSWER TO THE Cyprus problem, until we are ready, is a TWO-REPUBLIC SOLUTION.

[cypezokyli]

for a moment i thought u were zan, but the bold capital letters prove that u r indeed gc

In other words, the actions of that Turkish Cypriot does not justify why two peoples of two totally different ethnic backgrounds should be forced to live together

in other words the actions of some extremist tc or gc should be enough reason for the two of them to live together?

Your false dreams of unification are only adopted by a few,

vasso if u keep writing like that we will become more and more

I was just referring to the fact that there are, and will always be people in every nation who are fanatical, nationalistic or even racist

hmm...to whom are you reffering to vassos1?

Are you honestly saying that each Greek and Turkish Cypriot would be required to learn Greek and Turkish as a compulsory lesson at school?

ofcource!!! isnt that a beautiful idea?

Are you honestly telling me that my nephew should now learn how to speak Greek, Turkish, and English in order to be able to live in Cyprus?

you are strongly underestimating the unique boundless learning abilities of children. not to mention their natural anti-racism

ANSWER TO THE Cyprus problem, until we are ready, is a TWO-REPUBLIC SOLUTION

its amazing how your post are identical with zan. just amazing. and imagine u have such a different cultural backround!!!

[Kifeas]

Vassos,
You are trying to base and explain your pro-partition proposal on some in my opinion very subjective and largely nationalistic arguments.

My story of the TC who tried to save his GC co-villagers was not used by me in order to prove why the two communities must live together, but rather as a counter- argument to your own story that because your TC neighbours turned their guns to you, this is a reason why the two communities cannot and should not live together, and thus should separate their ways. I do not mind your suggesting of any proposal for consideration, even if this is one that suggests partition. What I expect though is that you will try to defend it -and also try to convince others, on the basis of logical and sound arguments. Most of your arguments are based on the hypothesis that because the two communities are two separate people, with two separate cultures, languages and religions, and also because they almost never got along with each other in the past -something which I refute, the only best solution is that of splitting entirely and depart for their own separate ways, as two different countries.

I will not say how much this hypothesis resembles to that of Denktash and the rest of the TC partitionists, as this is something which I am sure you also know very well. I will only say that your arguments, as long as they are based on the above assumptions, are not sound enough, but instead they reveal someone aspiring “ethnic” purity out of nationalistic sentiments. Your arguments are not sound, because Cyprus is not the only country and not the only state on earth that is composed and constituted by people who originate from different cultural, linguistic and religious backgrounds, nor it is the only place on earth that such “different” people had problems among and between each other in the past, and yet succeeded in overcoming them and managing to live and share the same country together. There are numerous such examples - perhaps as many or even more than the examples you want to make use of, in which such people decided not to separate their ways. I do not want to site such examples because you already know many of them.

I would have given more merit to your arguments if they were based on more objective issues, like for example what you already mentioned in relation to the insistence of the 18% of the TCs to share the running of the country in almost equal terms and footing (50:50) with the remaining 82% of Cypriots, and on the very basis of this absolute “ethnic” separation into two people. This is something that it is as illogical and unacceptable for me, as it is for you, since it completely disregards any democratic principle and if the TCs are never to be convinced to back down from such an extreme claim, then I might also perhaps consider your proposal. Apart from that and some other equally unacceptable and illogical demands that many TCs present, all the rest of the issues that you mentioned in order to support your proposal, are not reasons enough to be used as a basis on which to support partition, even if this is going to be on a 78:22 basis.

We can perfectly have two official languages (the EU has 25 official languages,) each group (community) can freely practice all the separate cultural, religious, educational and linguistic preferences and each community can have their own media in their own language, and yet still be able to call it a one perfectly functional country. Thanks to technology, the entire planet has shrunk into a one global village nowadays. If you can see any practical difficulties in this approach and assumptions, feel free to mention them so that we talk about them, but please no subjective issues like: we have different languages, different religions, we fought each other in the past, and all the rest, because all these are mental and can be overcome.

Again on the issue of language, I do not believe it is necessary for all the citizens to have to be obliged to learn both of the official ones, except for all the newly hired public servants which will be required to have a very good knowledge of at least one of the two official languages and some basic or intermediate knowledge of the other one. Each community can have their separate schools based on their language but which will also have to offer the teaching of the other community’s language as an elective one, like it is now the case with English, French, etc.

You say that we never lived as one in the first place. Who else did so, before they decided to do so? Did the Afro and the White Americans for example, who were once the slaves and masters to each other, ever lived as one with each other before they both decided to become so? Didn’t they both hate each other’s guts, until they both decided that they should live as equal citizens of the same country?

[Piratis]

It seems that you are willing to play with the lives of the TCs , who are the ones that will be at risk, so that your dream can MAYBE come true. I would much prefer a safer option. What a thing to ask?

And your "safer option" is achieved by ethnic cleansing so the two communities can live separately???
I will tell you of another even safer option then: All racist TCs move to the UK like you. This way not only we will be separated, we would be very far from each other also. What do you think?

[Vassos1]

Kifeas,
Your last posting was very interesting and logical; I might even say that you sound like a very pragmatic individual. You explanation regarding the undemocratic policy of having a 50:50 proposal with a 18% ethnic population was spot on, and I even agreed with you final paragraph regarding one Global Village. I think we are now beginning to slowly understand each other, and what would be feasibly acceptable as a solution for Cyprus.

So Kifeas, what are you really proposing? As, due to our written discussion here, even I may have shifted my hard-line stance. However, my only real concern is the time it will take for the Turkish and Greek Cypriot administrations to finally devise a formula for implementation. My suggestions are only based on the idea that a separation, and not a full divorce, will actually help our people from accepting a more economically and politically stronger Turkish Cypriot administration into a full federal government. As you know, the Annan Plan would have cost us too much person revenue in order to upgrade the North’s economy, our efforts would have been dramatically strained and the uncertainty regarding the official stance of the Turkish Military made us feel uneasy about the entire Annan 5 Plan. Therefore, I am suggesting that we may need to adopt a “Gradual” solution to the Cyprus problem in order to facilitate an overall federal structure. This is why I have suggested that there be two republic states of Cyprus, both removing the Turkish and Greek element from the equation; In other words, the Republic of Cyprus is for everyone, while the so-called TRNC must be renamed to the Republic of Northern Cyprus for a start.

By adopting a fair two-republic formula in considering the realities of the island; the population difference, and how we have lived over the past 30 years, we will be able to quickly move onto to rebuilding what appears to be reseeding from the “Cypriot” society.

I am sure about one thing though, and that is that if we wait for another Annan style plan we will all loose, if we wait for a natural progress with no push factor we will see a recognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, and if we say no to another Annan Plan we will be hitting our heads on an official TRNC border gate. My suggestions are only based on the fact that we are all, as what we have failed to do in the past, waiting for the UK, EU or the US to solve our problems. They do not understand our history, our feelings, our heritage, just as we do not understand why Britain felt the need to have travel thousands of miles to invade the Falkland Islands that had nothing modern to do with them. They claimed that they had found the Falkland Islands, when it was clearly noticed by the people who sailed those great seas long before their more modern voyages. If they have a policy of believing that the Falklands Invasion was entirely rightful, what are their true views concerning the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus? Do they believe that the Ottomans who conquered the island in 1571 actually deserve to now own 40% of its land today?

We need a solution, and President Papadopoulos needs to get his finger out before it is too late, or is that what he is really waiting for?

Kifeas – Thanks for your response, it was a pleasure reading your valued comments.

[zan]

It seems that you are willing to play with the lives of the TCs , who are the ones that will be at risk, so that your dream can MAYBE come true. I would much prefer a safer option. What a thing to ask?

And your "safer option" is achieved by ethnic cleansing so the two communities can live separately???
I will tell you of another even safer option then: All racist TCs move to the UK like you. This way not only we will be separated, we would be very far from each other also. What do you think?

You do realise that there is already partition in Cyprus and that there is no need for any ethnic cleansing from either side? You are just after revenge my friend and that is what all the TCs are afraid of. You keep using the words “ethnic cleansing” and “occupation” to try and cleans your soul to no avail. Ethnic cleansing was what was happening to me, personally in 1964, so dry your eyes and don’t weep for me. If you keep ignoring the fact that murdering EOKA terrorists made TCs and GCs scream and pull their hair out for their loved ones then in your eyes only the removal of every TC from the island will do.