Cyprus-Forum.com

[lysi]

Come on now will any forum members tell me if they have the balls to confront estate agents who are advertising and selling our stolen greek cypriot land ?
You can phone , email or walk in to there offices to confront these greedy bastards.
There are more and more of these scumbags dealing in OUR land now, you can find out who they are by looking on the internet.


WILL YOU USE YOUR VOICE TODAY ?

[Kifeas]

Birkibrisli: I am afraid that, as you may have said; my reasons for wanting two-republic states differ greatly from the reasons of your Turkish brothers on Northern Cyprus and Turkey. Although I think that Cyprus would be better off by accepting the realities of two very distinct peoples on the island, I still believe that the Turkish Cypriots are very lucky that we have accepted them after the overwhelming support that they had shown to the Turkish Army in the invasion of 1974. Even my Turkish Cypriot next door neighbours held their guns towards us when we were being forced to leave our homes by UN guardsman. My trust has never been the same. I am sorry.

Vassos,
1.) I am reading your postings occasionally. I have come to the conclusion that the reasons behind your ideas and suggestions have nothing to do with the indeed frustrating “insolvability” of the Cyprus problem within the given and current parameters of re-unification through a federation, but mainly because (a) deep inside you, you maintain feelings of resentment towards the TCs and (b) because you aspire an “ethnically” pure Greek Cypriot RoC, mainly for nationalistic sentiments.

2.) I have come to this conclusion simply because I noticed that -once your whatever logical arguments in support of your proposals run short, you retrieve into arguments like the above quoted reply to Birkibrisli.

3.) You said above that the reasons behind your wanting of two separate states, differ greatly from the reasons that presumably the TCs want them (although I am confident that this is not necessarily the case anymore -at least with the majority of the TCs.) However, at the same time you speak about the reality of two distinct people in Cyprus, exactly in the same way that Denktash and the other Turkish /TC chauvinists used to make use of it. You have to decide, do you subscribe to the Denktash doctrine of two distinct people on the island, or not? Depending on your -in no uncertain terms- reply to this question, I will then proceed –if you wish so- to further discuss this particular issue with you.

4.) Like you -although a bit younger, I was caught in the middle of the war zone (invasion) in 1974 and I have experienced and seen a lot. Like you, I have lost close relatives, very valuable properties, all my childhood memories but more importantly, I lost contact with what defines my historical identity as a Greek speaking Cypriot. Things for which I have not come into terms with, and I will never come as long as I live and the present situation continues.

5.) You seem to be bothered with the fact that the TC community assisted the Turkish invading forces in 1974, in their pursued to partition the island. I am bothered too. I am even more bothered knowing that the Turkish invasion, as things stood then, would have never succeeded if there wasn’t this internal help by the TC community. However, I am twice more bothered knowing that -even with the given TC assistance- the Turkish invasion would have still never succeeded if we did not dissolve our entire defence mechanisms with our own hands and as a result of the coup. You seem to have no words to say about this later reality. Why? Why do you emphasise on the role of the TCs only? What about the role of some GCs during those events? Aren’t you bothered that these people circulate freely among us during all these years and they also engage in politics, try to have a say and a role in our affairs? Why you are only bothered about the TCs?

6.) You are bothered by the role of the TCs in the 1974 events. Have you ever wondered what pushed the majority of the TCs into such a role? Was the fact that the TCs were preparing and longing for a Turkish invasion long before it happened, a totally unknown fact for us then? No it wasn’t! Have you ever wondered why a community that used to be living among us for 300 years, spoke our language, worked and lived together with us in the same jobs, fields, villages and towns, attended and enjoyed each others company, holiday celebrations, weddings, played sports in the same teams and all the rest, would all of suddenly and within just one decade would want to completely separate themselves from us and divide the island? Is this normal? Have you ever wondered what our responsibility was so that almost the TC community took such a path? Have you ever wondered what our side did and more importantly what we did not do, either because of neglect or indifference, so that such an outcome did not materialise? Weren’t we the ones who were the most “content” (together with the TC chauvinists) for the situation in which the entire TC community found itself before 1974? Weren’t we the ones who were whistling indifferent for the fact that the TC community remained enclave and impoverished in their “strongholds” and thus a total and complete pray to their chauvinist and pro-partition leadership and the TMT, and thus allowed to be convinced that their “salvation” would only come through a Turkish invasion and partition of Cyprus? What did we do, or better what we did not do, in order to put an end to this dangerous for all of us reality? There were many things we could have done, but instead we were wasting all our energy and thoughts in fighting each other internally, with some of us undermining the state and some others wasting their time and energy in order to figure out how to confront the underminers.

7.) You are bothered that your TC neighbours turned up their guns to your family in 1974. I am sure this is a fact, and you are right to be bothered. I will also add that many GCs were in fact murdered by TCs during 1974, after their arrest by the Turkish troops. What you are forgetting however, is the fact that at the same time many TC civilians (women, children and elders) were also murdered by the Eoka B fascist criminals, who instead of going to Kyrenia to fight the Turkish invading forces, they had chosen to play the safe game of arresting entire TC villages and in many cases in which those arrests were not registered and recorded by the red cross, they exploited the chaos of the invasion in order to proceed to mass murders. Are you aware that at least as many as 500 TC innocent civilians -a number which percentage wise is almost as high as the GC losses, were murdered in this way, many of which were originating from the villages that are situated in the region from which you are coming from? Are any of your relatives by any chance related to those murderers? If yes then this would possibly explain your fears and dislike of the idea that the two communities come back and live together.

8.) Nevertheless, what you are definately “forgetting” -because it obviously does not suit your theories, is the fact that perhaps as many GCs were saved from the Turkish /TC chauvinists as a result of last minute intervention by other TCs, in the same way of course that as many or even more TCs were saved from the hands of the Eoka B chauvinists by other GCs. If you happen to meet any GC from the Afania village (a village that used to be mixed before 1974,) ask him to explain to you how they were saved by a TC young officer originating from the same village and was acting as a guide to the Turkish troops during the second phase. The young TC, after having seen what happened to the GCs of the nearby GC village once the Turkish troops raided in, deserted from his duties as a guide and risking his own life (which he eventually lost during his return) run ahead of the Turkish battalion in order to reach his village first and inform his GC go-villagers to evacuate it as soon as possible, before the Turkish troops arrive. The TC inhabitants of this village (Afania) not only did not forget their GC co-villagers during the last 30 years, but when the “boarders” re-opened in 2003, they cleaned their church, cemetery, painted their houses, etc, invited them to visit the village collectively and they staged a day-long festival in the middle of the village with music, dances and food to celebrate their re-union. Now, I suggest to you to go and try to sell your ideas to the people -GCs and TCs alike, of this village. And this is just one of the numerous (almost uncounted) examples and cases that took place both in the north and in the south, during the last 2.5 years. This is the untold history of Cyprus!

9.) Have you ever wondered how much poorer and plain our lives could /would be if loosing the TC element from our culture and society? Have you ever wondered what we will be telling our visitors - tourists from other European countries, but more importantly to our children in 30 or 50 years from now, when they will be pointing at the mosques, cemeteries and the other TC monuments in the south and asking us who these things belong to, what happened to those people and why they are not here any more? Are we going to destroy them too, in a similar way that the chauvinists in the north attempted to do, so that we erase the evidence of the existence -once- of a different culture to ours? Or are we going to say to our children that we let those people go away because we were both too primitive to accept to live together in one country? Will they forgive us for giving up and not trying until the very end?

[bg_turk]

Do you know the Turkish saying "Choklukta olum bile tatlidir",bg_turk.
(Even death is sweet if you have good company)

[boomerang]

Birkibrisli: I am afraid that, as you may have said; my reasons for wanting two-republic states differ greatly from the reasons of your Turkish brothers on Northern Cyprus and Turkey. Although I think that Cyprus would be better off by accepting the realities of two very distinct peoples on the island, I still believe that the Turkish Cypriots are very lucky that we have accepted them after the overwhelming support that they had shown to the Turkish Army in the invasion of 1974. Even my Turkish Cypriot next door neighbours held their guns towards us when we were being forced to leave our homes by UN guardsman. My trust has never been the same. I am sorry.

Vassos,
1.) I am reading your postings occasionally. I have come to the conclusion that the reasons behind your ideas and suggestions have nothing to do with the indeed frustrating “insolvability” of the Cyprus problem within the given and current parameters of re-unification through a federation, but mainly because (a) deep inside you, you maintain feelings of resentment towards the TCs and (b) because you aspire an “ethnically” pure Greek Cypriot RoC, mainly for nationalistic sentiments.

2.) I have come to this conclusion simply because I noticed that -once your whatever logical arguments in support of your proposals run short, you retrieve into arguments like the above quoted reply to Birkibrisli.

3.) You said above that the reasons behind your wanting of two separate states, differ greatly from the reasons that presumably the TCs want them (although I am confident that this is not necessarily the case anymore -at least with the majority of the TCs.) However, at the same time you speak about the reality of two distinct people in Cyprus, exactly in the same way that Denktash and the other Turkish /TC chauvinists used to make use of it. You have to decide, do you subscribe to the Denktash doctrine of two distinct people on the island, or not? Depending on your -in no uncertain terms- reply to this question, I will then proceed –if you wish so- to further discuss this particular issue with you.

4.) Like you -although a bit younger, I was caught in the middle of the war zone (invasion) in 1974 and I have experienced and seen a lot. Like you, I have lost close relatives, very valuable properties, all my childhood memories but more importantly, I lost contact with what defines my historical identity as a Greek speaking Cypriot. Things for which I have not come into terms with, and I will never come as long as I live and the present situation continues.

5.) You seem to be bothered with the fact that the TC community assisted the Turkish invading forces in 1974, in their pursued to partition the island. I am bothered too. I am even more bothered knowing that the Turkish invasion, as things stood then, would have never succeeded if there wasn’t this internal help by the TC community. However, I am twice more bothered knowing that -even with the given TC assistance- the Turkish invasion would have still never succeeded if we did not dissolve our entire defence mechanisms with our own hands and as a result of the coup. You seem to have no words to say about this later reality. Why? Why do you emphasise on the role of the TCs only? What about the role of some GCs during those events? Aren’t you bothered that these people circulate freely among us during all these years and they also engage in politics, try to have a say and a role in our affairs? Why you are only bothered about the TCs?

6.) You are bothered by the role of the TCs in the 1974 events. Have you ever wondered what pushed the majority of the TCs into such a role? Was the fact that the TCs were preparing and longing for a Turkish invasion long before it happened, a totally unknown fact for us then? No it wasn’t! Have you ever wondered why a community that used to be living among us for 300 years, spoke our language, worked and lived together with us in the same jobs, fields, villages and towns, attended and enjoyed each others company, holiday celebrations, weddings, played sports in the same teams and all the rest, would all of suddenly and within just one decade would want to completely separate themselves from us and divide the island? Is this normal? Have you ever wondered what our responsibility was so that almost the TC community took such a path? Have you ever wondered what our side did and more importantly what we did not do, either because of neglect or indifference, so that such an outcome did not materialise? Weren’t we the ones who were the most “content” (together with the TC chauvinists) for the situation in which the entire TC community found itself before 1974? Weren’t we the ones who were whistling indifferent for the fact that the TC community remained enclave and impoverished in their “strongholds” and thus a total and complete pray to their chauvinist and pro-partition leadership and the TMT, and thus allowed to be convinced that their “salvation” would only come through a Turkish invasion and partition of Cyprus? What did we do, or better what we did not do, in order to put an end to this dangerous for all of us reality? There were many things we could have done, but instead we were wasting all our energy and thoughts in fighting each other internally, with some of us undermining the state and some others wasting their time and energy in order to figure out how to confront the underminers.

7.) You are bothered that your TC neighbours turned up their guns to your family in 1974. I am sure this is a fact, and you are right to be bothered. I will also add that many GCs were in fact murdered by TCs during 1974, after their arrest by the Turkish troops. What you are forgetting however, is the fact that at the same time many TC civilians (women, children and elders) were also murdered by the Eoka B fascist criminals, who instead of going to Kyrenia to fight the Turkish invading forces, they had chosen to play the safe game of arresting entire TC villages and in many cases in which those arrests were not registered and recorded by the red cross, they exploited the chaos of the invasion in order to proceed to mass murders. Are you aware that at least as many as 500 TC innocent civilians -a number which percentage wise is almost as high as the GC losses, were murdered in this way, many of which were originating from the villages that are situated in the region from which you are coming from? Are any of your relatives by any chance related to those murderers? If yes then this would possibly explain your fears and dislike of the idea that the two communities come back and live together.

8.) Nevertheless, what you are definately “forgetting” -because it obviously does not suit your theories, is the fact that perhaps as many GCs were saved from the Turkish /TC chauvinists as a result of last minute intervention by other TCs, in the same way of course that as many or even more TCs were saved from the hands of the Eoka B chauvinists by other GCs. If you happen to meet any GC from the Afania village (a village that used to be mixed before 1974,) ask him to explain to you how they were saved by a TC young officer originating from the same village and was acting as a guide to the Turkish troops during the second phase. The young TC, after having seen what happened to the GCs of the nearby GC village once the Turkish troops raided in, deserted from his duties as a guide and risking his own life (which he eventually lost during his return) run ahead of the Turkish battalion in order to reach his village first and inform his GC go-villagers to evacuate it as soon as possible, before the Turkish troops arrive. The TC inhabitants of this village (Afania) not only did not forget their GC co-villagers during the last 30 years, but when the “boarders” re-opened in 2003, they cleaned their church, cemetery, painted their houses, etc, invited them to visit the village collectively and they staged a day-long festival in the middle of the village with music, dances and food to celebrate their re-union. Now, I suggest to you to go and try to sell your ideas to the people -GCs and TCs alike, of this village. And this is just one of the numerous (almost uncounted) examples and cases that took place both in the north and in the south, during the last 2.5 years. This is the untold history of Cyprus!

9.) Have you ever wondered how much poorer and plain our lives could /would be if loosing the TC element from our culture and society? Have you ever wondered what we will be telling our visitors - tourists from other European countries, but more importantly to our children in 30 or 50 years from now, when they will be pointing at the mosques, cemeteries and the other TC monuments in the south and asking us who these things belong to, what happened to those people and why they are not here any more? Are we going to destroy them too, in a similar way that the chauvinists in the north attempted to do, so that we erase the evidence of the existence -once- of a different culture to ours? Or are we going to say to our children that we let those people go away because we were both too primitive to accept to live together in one country? Will they forgive us for giving up and not trying until the very end?

Kifeas I would like to thank you for an excellent post, and even though I was not raised in Cyprus, you post made me proud to call myself a Cypriot...Thanks mate

[cypezokyli]

my god am i dreaming ?

hehe
kifeas, i agree with you all the way
beautiful post.

hey birkibrisli, wouldnt you say that it is good to have some gcs with extreme views? it takes the best out of all of the rest of us

[2fan]

Dear God in heaven!!!!! I am still rubbing my eyes in disbelief. Kifeas you blew my hair back with this magnificent and inspired post. You truly are a true Cypriot all the way my friend.

[BirKibrisli]

my god am i dreaming ?

hehe
kifeas, i agree with you all the way
beautiful post.

hey birkibrisli, wouldnt you say that it is good to have some gcs with extreme views? it takes the best out of all of the rest of us

Honestly guys,I don't understand why Kifeas has a bad reputation.
He has been through one of the worst experiences any child can have,being torn from your home in fear of death.He is entitled to have strong views about the fate of his country and his people.He puts his views forcibly (some would say aggresively) and with a mixture of intellect and passion, but he is a sensitive man with a lot of compassion and empathy.I would be very proud if he were my brother.

[Piratis]

Honestly guys,I don't understand why Kifeas has a bad reputation.

Simple: Things like unity, legality, human rights and democracy are considered as extreme by some. Anybody that believes in these principles can have a bad reputation among some circles.

Personally I agree with everything that Kifeas said. (except from the part that he said that TCs had 500 dead in 1974 and that was about the same amount as our casualties. We had 6000 casualties, and thats a lot more even percentage wise)

Why is anybody surprised by what kifeas said anyways? What kifeas believes is that there can be no excuses for the racist partition. He gives the right answer to everybody, on either side, who comes up with lame excuses as to why unity is not possible.

[cypezokyli]

hey birkrisli
didnt you experience any good old kifeas-viewpont discussions?
now that i mention it, i am wondering what vp would have said about this post.
dont like to play the psycologist...but i guess sometimes is not what u say but how u say it. kifeas sometimes forgets a good old saying we have :
o kalos o tropos fkalei to fidi pou ti trypa tou
the good way can bring the snake out of its whole.

not implying that the tcs are the snake here
but if a tc said : you killed us.
there are two possible ways of answering back:
1. HOW ABOUT YOU ? HOW MANY DID YOU KILL? OR DID YOU FORGET THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ?(THE CAPITAL LETTERS ARE SO TYPICAL FOR MANY GREEKS AND GREEKCYPRIOTS FOR SOME REASON... NOT TO MENTION CAPITAL AND BOLD)
2. we apologise. both communities did stupid things at the time

now guess which discussion will lead nowhere, and which ,might, at some point come to the point on what do we do now? in a way both say the same thing. none rejects the fact that we killed. and both remind the tcs that both communities committed crimes.

for this reason i believe that kifeas and vp agree in more things that they believe or like to believe. so, one (like kifeas for example) can choose to be strict (hope thats a politcally correct word ) with any tc or gc extremist or nainaides they discuss. some others (the following one : birkibrisli) are nice and polite to everyone(how do you manage man?). and some more stupid (like me ) choose to be stricter on our side .

[BirKibrisli]

hey birkrisli
didnt you experience any good old kifeas-viewpont discussions?
now that i mention it, i am wondering what vp would have said about this post.
dont like to play the psycologist...but i guess sometimes is not what u say but how u say it. kifeas sometimes forgets a good old saying we have :
o kalos o tropos fkalei to fidi pou ti trypa tou
the good way can bring the snake out of its whole.

not implying that the tcs are the snake here
but if a tc said : you killed us.
there are two possible ways of answering back:
1. HOW ABOUT YOU ? HOW MANY DID YOU KILL? OR DID YOU FORGET THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ?(THE CAPITAL LETTERS ARE SO TYPICAL FOR MANY GREEKS AND GREEKCYPRIOTS FOR SOME REASON... NOT TO MENTION CAPITAL AND BOLD)
2. we apologise. both communities did stupid things at the time

now guess which discussion will lead nowhere, and which ,might, at some point come to the point on what do we do now? in a way both say the same thing. none rejects the fact that we killed. and both remind the tcs that both communities committed crimes.

for this reason i believe that kifeas and vp agree in more things that they believe or like to believe. so, one (like kifeas for example) can choose to be strict (hope thats a politcally correct word ) with any tc or gc extremist or nainaides they discuss. some others (the following one : birkibrisli) are nice and polite to everyone(how do you manage man?). and some more stupid (like me ) choose to be stricter on our side .

Yiasou cypezokyli,

I too sometimes wonder why Viewpoint has been rather quiet lately.
I hope he/she has not abandoned this forum.I for one miss her/his vigour and passion.Come back,Viewpoint,all is forgiven...

We have the same saying,cypezokyli.WE SHOULDNT BE SURPRISED AS WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE:Tatli dil yilani deliginden chikarir (A sweet tongue will make a snake come out of its hole)(Notice my capital letters,taking a leaf out of some GCs' book)

We have another saying (let me know if you have something similar on the other side of the great divide!) Her yigidin bir yogurt yeyishi var (Every brave/soldier has a different way of eating yougurt).This was said with Kifeas and Viewpoint in mind

How do I manage to be polite all (most!) of the time?
I imagine that the person abusing me is a human being who is hurting so much deep inside that he/she can't help but be rude.They don't want to but they can't help themselves.You can't be angry with someone doing something that is beyond their power to stop.You can only feel sorry for them,and feel sorry you can't do much to help them,except being the target of their hatred and venom.

And you being stricter on your side is not stupid,imo,but very wise.
You have the wisdom and the maturity to see where your side is wrong and the courage to try to get them to see the alternative view.Any fool can find fault with his enemy(!).It takes a wise man to see the faults of his own side.I would be very proud if my 6 year old son turned out to be a young man like you.