Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

i wouldnt call clerides great. but let me remind you that his "greatness" supported the anan plan and that makes him completely disagreeing with you vasos1

[Main_Source]

lol this Vassos sounds like a 'TRNC' double agent. Wouldnt surprise me if they did employ viral promoters.

[Nikiforos]

Vassos1, I am generally NOT in agreement with what you say. Turkey is one hiccup away from economic ruin. The Turkish generals with their itchy trigger fingers may at some point foolishly depose the government. While they have tried to appear relatively restrained lately, old behavioral patterns die hard.

The Kurds will continue pushing for their own state to include a significant part of Turkish territory--1/3 of eastern Turkey is not unreasonable.

Eventually (hopefully sooner rather than later) the EU nations will have to deal with the threat that Muslims present within their territory. I believe that they will choose wisely and NOT follow the American way of accommodation of "minorities" and dilution/destruction of the once dominant culture. The EU must muster backbone and tell the US to go to hell.

If the events in France of the past 3 weeks have taught anything, it is that the EU DOES NOT NEED MILLIONS OF MUSLIM TURKS SWARMING OVER THE EU.

[zan]

Vassos1, I am generally NOT in agreement with what you say. Turkey is one hiccup away from economic ruin. The Turkish generals with their itchy trigger fingers may at some point foolishly depose the government. While they have tried to appear relatively restrained lately, old behavioral patterns die hard.

The Kurds will continue pushing for their own state to include a significant part of Turkish territory--1/3 of eastern Turkey is not unreasonable.

Eventually (hopefully sooner rather than later) the EU nations will have to deal with the threat that Muslims present within their territory. I believe that they will choose wisely and NOT follow the American way of accommodation of "minorities" and dilution/destruction of the once dominant culture. The EU must muster backbone and tell the US to go to hell.

If the events in France of the past 3 weeks have taught anything, it is that the EU DOES NOT NEED MILLIONS OF MUSLIM TURKS SWARMING OVER THE EU.

You may hear numerous rumours about the origins of the EU, say the numerous original European Communities and namely the European Coal and Steal Community, European Economic Community, and European Atomic Community being the main three.

Historic revisionism runs rampant, but historical fact is available to refute fiction. The European Communities were established through the Treaty of Rome to assit the United States efforts to limit and check Soviet expansionism into Central and Western Europe. It was an American project set up to serve American interests, not a reaction or a structure established to counter or balance American hegemony. As the Americans saw a need to re-develop Germany, France bought into the European project in its community-based structure because the French wanted the ability to control, limit, and be a part of any mechanism contributed to German redevelopment.

Liberal theory is full of hoaxy-poaxy idealist propaganda which twists the realities of political realism and consequences of World War II. I can only suggest that you don't pay too much attention to stories, but read history closely. Marshall Plan assistance and America's Cold War containment policy is where the EU has its origins.

Turkey and America seem to be getting on very well at the moment!

[Alexis]

Liberal theory is full of hoaxy-poaxy idealist propaganda which twists the realities of political realism and consequences of World War II. I can only suggest that you don't pay too much attention to stories, but read history closely. Marshall Plan assistance and America's Cold War containment policy is where the EU has its origins.

Turkey and America seem to be getting on very well at the moment!

All very true, but since the 'fall' of communism we find ourselves in a new world where world politics is no longer as simple as US/USSR/Non-Aligned. It is since that time that EU has gone from a mere EEC to the EU that it now is.

In the present environment no-one can take anything for granted. We simply do not know the way things will pan out. Forming trade partnerships and alliances with neighbouring countries (including Turkey) is the best way forward. Division of Cyprus without a comprehensive settlement will ensure that this does not happen leaving us on the brink of instability for the next 30 years.

[Vassos1]

Main_Source, you are living in the Twilight Zone if you think that I am a TRNC promoter. On the contrary, I am trying to secure our people’s future by removing the so-called TRNC out of OUR equation. However, seeing that you fail to understand real politics, I am diverting my efforts to the other members in this discussion. Please Main_Source, make sure you READ my postings carefully before accussing someone like me, a person who has seen our Greek Cypriot National Guardsmen slaughtered on the Kyrenia beach front in 1974, of being a promoter of the TRNC. In my opinion, I am trying to “Reduce” the present hold the Turkish Cypriots have on us, I am trying to warn our people of the realities of what is happening in Cyprus, what the Turkish Cypriots/ with Turkey are achieving, right in front of our eyes.

Unification in Cyprus is impossible, that is a fact that even the most uneducated farmer in Paphos is a being to recognise.

Nikiforos, you have failed to understand the changes in Turkey. Do you not realize that the Turkish Military had already agreed to the Annan Plan 5; they had accepted the reduction of their troops from 40’000 to 650, and had agreed that the Turkish Troops would, by the year 2015, be reduced to nothing more than a team of police officers in Cyprus. Please read the Annan Plan 5 again if you have your doubts. So, what does this tell us? It tells us simply that the Turkish Military only cares about one thing, Money! If they can spend on whatever they need, the government will no be bugged. I think the opposite to what you said regarding the Turkish military is true, the fact that they were severely bitten when they were not able to purchase any military upgrades in the 2000 economic crises. Believe me when I say that Turkey will never fall into that situation again, especially with the way it is investing at the moment.

There is unfortunately only one truth here, and that is that if we do not stop wasting time in searching for a Republic of Cyprus formula for Cyprus, we may just suddenly wake up to a recognized TRNC occupying 37% of our island. Just ask yourself this, what have we actually gained since 1974? After all of the event performed by Turkey and its military nationalism, what have we been able to CLAIM BACK from the present area known as the TRNC? Have we been able to politically force the dismantle of this occupied area? Have we been able to stopped an influx of Turkish refuges with the help of the UN into the occupied zone? Have we been able to stop the Turks from destroying our houses in Kyrenia and rebuilding hotels? AND, have we been able to stop British holiday makers from buying luxury, newly built houses on our pre-1974 land? Do our deeds of the former Republic of Cyprus have any rights in the occupied areas?

The answer is NO, NO, and NEVER…..

Please ask yourself, what will now happen in the next two years. Unfortunately, our political leaders have been sleeping, and I am afraid that we are heading for a serious heart-break regarding the area occuping 37% of our island.

Alexis, isn’t the present EU simiplar to that of a UNION I used to know sometime ago? All UNIONS fail, and I am certain that the EU will become the EEC again. The answer to this is simple. FRANCE, GERMANY and the UK, the feeders of the EU are now exhausted, their economies are suffering from the “Eaters” of this so-called prosperous UNION/CLUB. If the UNION continues with the way its today, I am afraid that the German and French economies will collapse. Although I am not an economist, please do not hesitate in asking any investment banker about the present state of the “Real” economy of the EU compared to the expanding ASIAN market. France has already started introducing its currency in certain areas, while Germany is now seriously contemplating this concept. While the UK, we seriously do not have to go into what they are planning, or whether they will ever accept the weakening EU currency.

My concern is CYPRUS, and I don’t think we are fully aware of what Mehmed Ali Tallat is up to. Just remember, with Denktash senior gone, Cyprus’ bad boy is Mr Papadopoulos.

TWO republic states, one of 22% and the other 78% (and let’s include the entire area of one of the British Bases to our Greek Republic of Cyprus) would be a dream come true. If you fail to believe this, then my dreams of moving to a STABLE Cyprus is tarnished.

If we form a trade partnership with Turkey now, without an agreement, we will simply be allowing Turkey to strangle our economic capabilities in the future; can you imagine Turkey suddenly wanting to sell off its share to a Turkish Cypriot company in the so-called Occupied area known as the TRNC. Alexis, please think before you write such compassionate statement in this forum, as there are more influential people reading our conversations than you could possible know!

Regards
Vassos

[cypezokyli]

Unification in Cyprus is impossible, that is a fact that even the most uneducated farmer in Paphos is a being to recognise.

the series of facts u have presented vassos1 do not really have sth to do with this basic conclusion. as i said before in another thread i really believe that your opinions are largely formed by the fact that :

has seen our Greek Cypriot National Guardsmen slaughtered on the Kyrenia beach front in 1974

it is sad if someone has to expericence such things. but u should not forget that we were not the only ones who suffered.

So, what does this tell us? It tells us simply that the Turkish Military only cares about one thing, Money!

i dont pretend to have that much knowledge of how the turkish army works but despite the fact that i believe money are always important allow me to doubt your point. the army knows well what in its opinion the interest of turkey are and they want sell them just for money. the fact that they didnt get the american money in the iraq war is opposing your theory.
and even if they only care about money what does that have to do with them accepting the AP?

There is unfortunately only one truth here, and that is that if we do not stop wasting time in searching for a Republic of Cyprus formula for Cyprus, we may just suddenly wake up to a recognized TRNC occupying 37% of our island. Just ask yourself this, what have we actually gained since 1974? After all of the event performed by Turkey and its military nationalism, what have we been able to CLAIM BACK from the present area known as the TRNC? Have we been able to politically force the dismantle of this occupied area? Have we been able to stopped an influx of Turkish refuges with the help of the UN into the occupied zone? Have we been able to stop the Turks from destroying our houses in Kyrenia and rebuilding hotels? AND, have we been able to stop British holiday makers from buying luxury, newly built houses on our pre-1974 land? Do our deeds of the former Republic of Cyprus have any rights in the occupied areas?

The answer is NO, NO, and NEVER…..

thats why it is time to sit on a table and start negotiating a solution

Unfortunately, our political leaders have been sleeping

zzzzz

All UNIONS fail, and I am certain that the EU will become the EEC again.

the thoeritcal fight on if they fail or not is going on for years and proves actually that one cannot be sure for nothing.

If you fail to believe this, then my dreams of moving to a STABLE Cyprus is tarnished.

we all have dreams vassos1 ...but thank god they are all different.

[Nikiforos]

Vassos,

You put too much faith in the Turkish military living up to its obligations under Annan 5. There is no guarantee that they will live up to their obligations. In addition, why do they need to take until 2015 to reduce their presence to a token force. They likely stretched it out to see where their EU bid stood at that time. If their EU bid was dead or dying before 2015, the Turks could freeze or reverse any troop withdrawal done until that time. Who would stop them--the US? NATO? Britain? Greece? EU? Of course, all of us know the answer to this.

Annan 5 was acceptable to the Turkish military because it very heavily favored their position. Not enough time has elapsed to say with a reasonable amount of certainty that the militant mentality of the Turks has truly changed. Their actions against the Ecumenical Patriarchate and in the Aegean suggest that any changes in Turkish attitudes are only cosmetic.

If the Turks are serious, then a total troop withdrawal must be done in a very compressed timeframe, for example, by 2008.

No country--Greece, Turkey, Britain, or any other--should be allowed to maintain a military presence on united Cyprus. Not even a token presence.

Annan 5 would allow the Turks to maintain intervention rights in Cyprus, even in the Greek constituent state in the south.THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!

You worry that TRNC will be recognized by some. THE ROC GOVERNMENT AND GREEK GOVERNMENT SHOULD MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THIS WOULD MEAN AN AUTOMATIC VETO OF EU MEMBERSHIP FOR TURKEY AND THE IMMEDIATE END OF ACCESSION NEGOTIATIONS.

[BirKibrisli]

I can see where Vassos is coming from.His thinking is very much like mine,only in the opposite direction.He says lets find a quick solution because time is working against us,lets salvage what we can while we can for the GCs and be happy with our own state.It is really the same mentality (all or nothing) criticised by Makarios Drousoitis only on a reduced piece of land(78%).
I too say let us find a solution quickly while we can,because soon the TCs will be drowned in a sea of "new Cypriots" who will not want to unite the island,and will not be squeezed into 22%.My own solution is to go back immidiately to the 1960 Constitution,bring some order to the Turkish troops and settlers situation,and when there is enough trust between the two communities,lets "negotiate" a more democratic constitution which will bring us nearer to majority rule.

But dear Vassos,nobody is listening to us,unfortunately.Most people have bitterness,hatred and revenge in their hearts (members of this forum excepted),and they will not stop till there is nothing left to salvage of our beautiful,sad homeland.
I cannot agree with your solution because it is the same "self-determination for GCs and stuff the TCs" mentality that has been applied since mid 50s.What you do not realise is how much the TCs need you at this crucial moment to pull them along shouting "Cyprus is for the Cypriot people,hands off everybody else".But I can't blame you for not realising this,because they don't realise it themselves.As a result Cyprus is heading for Partition between the EU and the Turkish/USA alliance.Cyprus and Cypriots will be the great loseres,and I will not stop reminding everyone this at every opportunity.It is all I can do for my country of birth.

[Alexis]

Alexis, isn’t the present EU simiplar to that of a UNION I used to know sometime ago? All UNIONS fail, and I am certain that the EU will become the EEC again. The answer to this is simple. FRANCE, GERMANY and the UK, the feeders of the EU are now exhausted, their economies are suffering from the “Eaters” of this so-called prosperous UNION/CLUB. If the UNION continues with the way its today, I am afraid that the German and French economies will collapse. Although I am not an economist, please do not hesitate in asking any investment banker about the present state of the “Real” economy of the EU compared to the expanding ASIAN market. France has already started introducing its currency in certain areas, while Germany is now seriously contemplating this concept. While the UK, we seriously do not have to go into what they are planning, or whether they will ever accept the weakening EU currency.

Hi Vassos,

Maybe the EU will fail sometime in the future, who knows. But does this mean that european trade as a whole will collapse? If there is anything an Economist will tell you for sure is that the the economy of any given region or country will fluctuate over time. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the state of the Asian economy only 5 or 6 years ago.

TWO republic states, one of 22% and the other 78% (and let’s include the entire area of one of the British Bases to our Greek Republic of Cyprus) would be a dream come true. If you fail to believe this, then my dreams of moving to a STABLE Cyprus is tarnished.

All well and good, and I can see where you are coming from. I too would not mind such an idea (in the way you have detailed in previous posts) if I truly believed that such an idea would bring the Cypriot people together rather than drive them apart. The first obstacle in the way (and I've raised this before in discussion) is whether the TCs would even entertain such a plan, especially after Annan 5. It's fairly safe to say that the territorial figures you quote are probably the absolute limit that would be accepted by GCs for a plan like this, so the question is would the TCs accept them in return for recognition? I don't know the answer but I wouldn't be surprised if it is no.

If we form a trade partnership with Turkey now, without an agreement, we will simply be allowing Turkey to strangle our economic capabilities in the future; can you imagine Turkey suddenly wanting to sell off its share to a Turkish Cypriot company in the so-called Occupied area known as the TRNC.

Perhaps I didn't communicate properly, apologies. My ambition for Cyprus is union under a bicommunally agreed comprehensive settlement. I do not suggest we form a trade partnership with Turkey under the current circumstances. I do however think we should if and when a comprehensive settlement is agreed and implemented. I would also suggest that this be the case if we were to follow a plan along your lines, what worries me is whether the climate in which such a plan materialises would allow this sort of thing (i.e. trade with Turkey and/or Northern Cyprus) to occur.

Alexis, please think before you write such compassionate statement in this forum, as there are more influential people reading our conversations than you could possible know!

I'm not sure exactly whom you are referring to here, you obviously know more about this than me. All I will say is that this is a 'discussion' forum in which ideas (sometimes quite radical ones) are discussed. As long as people are aware of this there should be no problem.