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Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:58 am

Get Real! wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Only a few embittered anti-Greeks still hold on to the hope that the Phaistos Disc is a forgery.

Before we can call something an “ancient artifact” there should be irrefutable scientific evidence for it otherwise we are kidding ourselves and cheating our children.


they have a history of cheating poor Greek Children. I vividly remember the Greek History lessons whereby they would tell us a whole bunch of false stuff like the Women that danced off the cliff before the advancing ottomans and the Secret Religious Schools that never existed.

Oh what about the British Empire being responsible for the establishment of Modern Greece along with Russia and France (Battle of Navarinon)? Without the UK, Greece wouldn't even exist. :roll:
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:15 am

Hereby the way is a link to another translation of the disc.http://www.wmmagazin.cz/index.php.

I can provide lots more.

There are a number of theories about the disc of varying degrees of believability, several of which pronounce the dic to be in a form of Greek, others that it is the non Greek and probably non Indo European llanguage of the Minoans pre the "mycenaean" conquest event of about 1500 Bc or so, or that it is early Slavic or basque, or a Calendar, or an early board game, or a hoax. The key point is that of those which consider it to be script none of the translations , even those which are posited on the disc being in eg Greek, agree on what it says.

Few conclusions can safely be drawn. There a number of theories as to the dating, ranging from 1800 bc through to the second half of the 14th century ie after 1400 bc, and if at these later times it may well be Greek, as by that time Phaistos had been conquered by the Greeks and by then Greek was the dominant written language as expressed in Linear B.

One problem is however that only a small percentage of the symbols on the disc can be related to any known script, and it is difficult to understand why yet another script might be needed to represent a particular language which had a functioning script in the form of Linear B.

The Fischer translation is no more credible than any other of the serious academic analysis, such as eg the work of the Massey twins, and all the efforts have had doubts expressed about them.

as for gIG' s statement about the Minoans pre about 1400 possibly 1500 or so speaking a form of Greek and linear a simply being a font of some sort, that does not hold water at all. Assuming that the 80 percent of similar signs represent the same syllable if one applies the sound rules of Linear B to Linear A t the words make no sense whatsoever in Linear A, so much so that there no indications of any relationship .

It is similar to the way that Russian script is derived from Greek or the way that the Latin Alphabet has been adopted by a number of languages as their written script. We can guess at what the words sound like a from the letters but we do not know what they mean.

Its only gIG's Irrational if not outright racist hellenocentrism that wants to claim the non Greek civilisation and language of the Minoans as being Greek.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:12 pm

We're back to square one where as soon as the myth that the Minoans came at a later date and were not part of the indigenous people of Crete has been smashed by genetics (see start of thread :D ), along come other gripping-by-fingernail conspiracy theories that supposedly everything found in Greece is either a hoax or not early Greek at al. Your desperation at purveying historical revisionism is pitiful, stud et al. Keep flicking through magazines for support little underdoggy. :lol:
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:17 pm

No gIG, the ancient Minoans who founded the civilisation that lasted in Crete until 1500 bc or so were the indigenous Cretans mentioned in the news item. They, their language, their civilisation etc., however were not Greek. In about 1600 bc the Minoan civilisation started to decline and in about 1500 to 1400 was conquered by Mycenaean invaders. After that time the replacement civilisation was principally Greek, probably achieved, as happened in Mainland Greece about 400 to 500 yrearss earlier and as occured in Cyprus about 400 to 500 years later, by a process of Elitist ascendency and which does not involve any mass migration or population replacement.

I have never said anything that is essentially different

It is you who purveying historical revisionism by suggesting otherwise.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:01 pm

Could there ever have been a people called “Cypriots” without a place first called Cyprus? Of course not!

Could there ever have been a people called “Burmese” without a place first called Burma? Of course not!

Could there ever have been a people called “Spanish” without a place first called Spain? Of course not!


So who can explain the existence of “Greeks” when there was no such thing as a place called “Greece” until the early 1800s? :lol:
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Cap » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:08 pm

Dunno about that GR.
I suppose if there were enough people to identify with a common nationality even with no demarcated territory, then came together to fight for a common cause and eventually claim a piece of territory.
Israel came about the same way.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:13 pm

Cap wrote:Dunno about that GR.
I suppose if there were enough people to identify with a common nationality even with no demarcated territory, then came together to fight for a common cause and eventually claim a piece of territory.
Israel came about the same way.

Let us not get confused with religious sects like "Jews".


"to identify with a common nationality" you say and that's exactly my point! There never was a territorial nation called Greece until recently!
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:27 pm

You don't need a single pinpoint place called "Greece" to identify these ancient tribes who inhabited these regions some 20,000 years ago. The like-minded people who exchanged cultures, similar gods, similar myths, similar language lived all over the mainland and islands that we only NOW call Greece, Cyprus, Crete etc (with our lingua franca of ENGLISH) intermingled constantly as they left trad-routes. The Minoan and Mycenaeans and Cypriots for example had many exchanges as the (inter alia) language dialects reveal.

Each time you try and destroy the history of Greece you destroy a lot of that of Cyprus too (I would be concerned, but your arguments are too crappy to bother with :D )
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Cap » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:28 pm

There was nothing for 400 years, granted.
Byzantine remnants then?
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:34 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You don't need a single pinpoint place called "Greece" to identify these ancient tribes...

Oh yes you do!

Without a “Greece” or “Ellada” or “Hellas” or "Ellas" since you prefer Greek, there could NOT have possibly been a people to identify with a NON-ENTITY!

YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!

What we are being served with today is MANUFACTURED HISTORY that stemmed from the early 1800s as part of the larger European package of maneuvers made back then to oppose and defeat the Ottomans.
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