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Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:32 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote: ...It must therefore follow LInear A cannot represent Greek,


You keep saying this but have provided no evidence why that should be the case. Instead you claim it is Sanskrit or Semitic or anything but Greek. Again, no evidence. This on top of claiming it is and also it isn't Indo-European. :roll:

Screaming it's "non-Greek" is not convincing in itself. Your alternatives are absurd and unsubstantiated. Especially in view of the fact the Minoans and Mycenaeans had such close long-term exchanges and such advanced civilizations.

BTW - Trying to gain male sympathy by calling me "Madam" and inciting bigotry only proves to me your desperation. All you've done is gain support from trolls that have added nothing to the thread topic but are only capable of coming out to post abuse.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:31 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:
Paphitis wrote:When the Minoan Civilisation began, there was no such thing as Greek!

CASE CLOSED!


Good call, mate.

Here is support is a link to a book by Dr Procope S Costas, a historian of and commentator on the Greek language, called
An Outline of the History of the Greek Language with Particular Emphasis on the Koine and the Subsequent Periods.

[url]https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Kx_NjXiMZM0C&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=An+Outline+of+the+History+of+the+Greek+Language+with+Particular+Emphasis+on+the+Koine+and+the+Subsequent+Periods&source=bl&ots=aCVEfC2_uS&sig=OR7rII7dtDJvhXS8XGFO9QUqj58&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBmoVChMIueCWsM7VxwIVgZ5yCh0pJAHH#v=onepage&q=An%20Outline%20of%20the%20History%20of%20the%20Greek%20Language%20with%20Particular%20Emphasis%20on%20the%20Koine%20and%20the%20Subsequent%20Periods&f=false
[/url]

The first three chapters address the origin of the Greek language and make it clear that what became Greek entered what is now mainland Greece from the North in about 2000BC before becoming Greek in that area. That was in the period after Linear A came into existence in about 2500 BC but before contact between the Mycenaeans and Minoans (to use modern labels) in the period around 1700 BC.

It must therefore follow LInear A cannot represent Greek, which did not exist for another few hundred years, around 500 years or so, and the Minoans could likewise not have spoken Greek as they seemingly had no contact with Greek speakers until as much 300 years after the development of Greece.

This is the point a certain woman has plainly failed to address expect by bland denial. I have invited her to do so, with supporting references, but she does not.

It illustrates that rather than me being in the corner it is her.


I know what you're saying mate!

She can't comprehend what is universally accepted as fact - that the Minoans pre-dated anything Greek and did not migrate from the North.

Instead, with such insecurity, she jumps up and down like a hyena on heat, as if Greekishness has been insulted. Of course, this must be her Turkish Ottoman genes responsible for this type of behaviour. :lol:
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Paphitis » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:38 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote: ...It must therefore follow LInear A cannot represent Greek,


You keep saying this but have provided no evidence why that should be the case. Instead you claim it is Sanskrit or Semitic or anything but Greek. Again, no evidence. This on top of claiming it is and also it isn't Indo-European. :roll:

Screaming it's "non-Greek" is not convincing in itself. Your alternatives are absurd and unsubstantiated. Especially in view of the fact the Minoans and Mycenaeans had such close long-term exchanges and such advanced civilizations.

BTW - Trying to gain male sympathy by calling me "Madam" and inciting bigotry only proves to me your desperation. All you've done is gain support from trolls that have added nothing to the thread topic but are only capable of coming out to post abuse.


Excuse me but it is you who is dismissing all the universally accepted scientific fact and simply arguing that it is Greek without any substantive evidence to support your argument.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:48 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:...i'm sure dog "thrives" on it too, but i will let him speak for himself.


I can be a dirty dog at times. Woof, f*cking woof!

Analysing documents based evidence and then debating the interpretation of them, often in a adversarial situation with lawyers (though I am no lawyer myself and have suggested to lawyers I might for libel when they accused me of being one) is what I do for a living.

I have an open mind on what the Minoans'(as we know call them) may have spoken: where "gIG" and I are in a agreement is that the evidence on what was spoken by the Minoans is not at all clear and there are a number of conflicting arguments about this, in particular whether the language was an earlier form of one of Indo European Languages or whether it is of the Semitic family.

The one thing that seems clear and which I "gIG"gle about is the apparent anachronism (ie lack of synchronicity) that exists when one tries to link the Chronology of Greek to that of the Minoans, where the Anachronism is of the order 500 to 700 years the wrong way for any theory about the Minoan language and/or Linear A being Greek to work. When I point that out, "gIG's reply totally fails to deal with that issue, and the debate will not move on until she does, producing relevant sources in support.

Or can we expect a theory that Agamemnon was a "Time Lord"with a Tardis who took Greek back all those hundreds of years in to the past to teach it to the Minoans, though the flaw with that is they would have used Linear B, as used in Mycenae.

I have otherwise raised a number of other logical points about the nature of the script where the answer of "gIG" seemed to be Linear A was not a script: that however in my view is not sustainable if one considers the use of Linear B tablets, which are are known to be some sort of records concerning goods, and the corresponding tablets in Linear A which (with similarities in the numbering system) with similar format likely fulfill the same function, i.e. as a record concerning goods, and where there must be consistency in the signs and what they represent to be valid viable system. That in turn comes back to another point, why when one had LInear A and Liner B tablets in existence at about the same time.one of which is clearly Greek, would there need to be two sets of symbols of very similar design but used in a different way to do the same job?

The logical interpretation is that symbols represent different languages - but no- ignoring that logic "'gIG" still insists the Minoans spoke Greek, when Greek only arrived as the major language in Crete after about 1400 BC, with the collapse of the Minoan civilisation at about that time and without producing even a logical argument let alone evidence.




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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:46 pm

Don't equivocate and make stuff up, stud.

You firmly stated Linear A was "non-Greek" and I am the one who pointed out to you there is no evidence to state this as fact!

You then ventured it might be Semitic or Sanskrit. Two languages from different origins. And again, with ZERO evidence to support such a thing. Indeed, I was the one pointing out to you how little we know.

What we do know is that:

(a) Linear A has been found in dozens of locations.

(b) All these locations are within the narrow confines of the the Greek world.

(c) so far, no sources of Linear A have been found anywhere else in the world!

How, then, can anyone who considers himself logical run around declaring that Linear A is probably Semitic or Sanskrit? :roll: By what logic? :roll: Just because you read someone else's opinion, it doesn't make it fact!

Furthermore, I offered the possibility that Linear A does not represent sounds, as in a spoken language, but is a collection of symbols with meanings such as we have for the infinity symbol or highway codes or suchlike and this could be supported by the fact Linear A is often found in votive offerings and discs such as that from Phaistos. This is a postulate.

I don't have to argue - the facts are mounting and the facts confirm the Classical historical framework supported by academics and ridicule the revisionists supported by Imperialists/Turks.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby Get Real! » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:14 pm

Without the ancient Cypriot alphabet there wouldn’t be a linear A, B, C, D, E, or Z.

Europeans would be hanging like monkeys from tree tops and Greece would be a swamp full of Albanian bonobos.

It doesn’t matter what labels you give ancient alphabets… Cyprus being the most ancient civilization of Europe (as part of the Cradle of Civilization) would have also been the first to invent the written word and spread it to everyone else just as they did with Christianity.
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:51 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Don't equivocate and make stuff up, stud.

You firmly stated Linear A was "non-Greek" and I am the one who pointed out to you there is no evidence to state this as fact!

You then ventured it might be Semitic or Sanskrit. Two languages from different origins. And again, with ZERO evidence to support such a thing. Indeed, I was the one pointing out to you how little we know.

What we do know is that:

(a) Linear A has been found in dozens of locations.

(b) All these locations are within the narrow confines of the the Greek world.

(c) so far, no sources of Linear A have been found anywhere else in the world!

How, then, can anyone who considers himself logical run around declaring that Linear A is probably Semitic or Sanskrit? :roll: By what logic? :roll: Just because you read someone else's opinion, it doesn't make it fact!

Furthermore, I offered the possibility that Linear A does not represent sounds, as in a spoken language, but is a collection of symbols with meanings such as we have for the infinity symbol or highway codes or suchlike and this could be supported by the fact Linear A is often found in votive offerings and discs such as that from Phaistos. This is a postulate.

I don't have to argue - the facts are mounting and the facts confirm the Classical historical framework supported by academics and ridicule the revisionists supported by Imperialists/Turks.


you are making yourself look stupid with your deliberate misreadings of my position, which is down right intellectually dishonest, and where you have once again failed to address the anachronism of 700 years in your argument, nor otherwise deal substantively let alone objectively with the arguments, but are relying on your own hellenistic reviosionism.

The Locations where LInear A has been found correspond to areas with which the Minoans were known to have links. That may well overlap geographically with what later became the Greek World, starting at about the time that Linear A fell out of use, but not chronologically, bearing in mind the point you have failed to address is that according to the main sources (Dr PS Costas and the like) Greek as a language did not exist until at the earliest 2000 BC, and there was no contact between the Minoan Civilisation and Greek speakers until about 1700, evidenced by that being about the time LInear A tablets can be identified as arriving in mainland Greece, when they had by that time been in use in Crete for 700 years, without any Greek Influence.

Rather you adopt a very flexible view of what is Greek, in particular from a chronological point of view, which ignores History.

You have in that respect produced not one shred of reasoned rational argument let alone supported with evidence that the Minoans spoke Greek. Indeed the article posted by the You as the OP itself states that the current prevailing Hypothesis (out of several) is that Minoan was not an Indo-Europeen language. Other commentators have suggested that Minoans may have spoken some form of an Indo-europen language, including
related to Sanskrit
, so my recognition that there are varying schools of thought (and where you once again willfully selectively quote or otherwise seek to misconstrue my position with thinks I never said ) is not a contradiction but represents balance and openness, as opposed to your closed mind on the topic.

The other alternative is that if you cannot understand the points I am making teehn you really are of limited intellect.

Your efforts to construe the Linear A as expressing concepts or thoughts appears to be original thought by you, - IN OTHER WORDS YOU ARE MAKING IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG since again there is no reference to any Academic debate in support of your theory.

Rather, because the bile boiling inside in you directed at seeking to discredit me, you have parted company with mainstream thought and are flailing. Your attempted politicising the debate by reference to imperialists /Turkish views really shows how pathetic you are, Madam!

So once again answer me this.

If as recognised by most academics Greek as language did not exist until 2000BC at the earliest, before developing in mainland Greece, and where according to prevailing thought there was no contact between the Greek speakers and the Minoans until 1700 BC, but the Minoan Civilisation with Linear A tablets existed since 2500 BC or so, how was it the Minoans could have spoken and Linear A represented a language which did not exist, and where in any event according to prevailing thought Minoan was not an Indo-European language, as Greek is?

ANSWER, WITH EVIDENCE/REFERENCE, OR STFU!
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:05 pm

Silly man. As though the whole of the academic world can be boiled down into one Wiki-like sentence to make sense to the likes of you. :P
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:06 pm

Get Real! wrote:Without the ancient Cypriot alphabet there wouldn’t be a linear A, B, C, D, E, or Z.

Europeans would be hanging like monkeys from tree tops and Greece would be a swamp full of Albanian bonobos.

It doesn’t matter what labels you give ancient alphabets… Cyprus being the most ancient civilization of Europe (as part of the Cradle of Civilization) would have also been the first to invent the written word and spread it to everyone else just as they did with Christianity.


On the whole (few details can be ironed out), I have to agree. This fits in with the presence of these languages/scripts/graphics in the known Greek world - of which Cyprus is a major part! :D
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Re: Minoan civilisation developed locally in Crete.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:24 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Silly man. As though the whole of the academic world can be boiled down into one Wiki-like sentence to make sense to the likes of you. :P


This really does show how intellectualy bankrupt you are, that you cannot answer a simpl question.

The Phaistos disc by the way is not reliable as it is so very different to anything else and no reliable conclusions can be drawn as to what is, where it came from, when it was made let alone what it says, where it might even be fake. There are so so many

My point remains that unless you can deal with the 700 year anachronism you have lost.
An easy victory for me in view of the poor qualiity of the other fellow debater.
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