Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

To be honest though bg_turk, that has been the case for many years.
Cyprus is where it is and has the demographics it has. One reason GCs are so angry with Turkey is that she clearly is exploiting Cyprus for her own aims. So what if Cyprus is so close to Turkey, all that means is that Turkey is just as close to Cyprus. How would Turks feel if the roles were reversed and Cyprus invaded Turkey to protect Greek people living there
(not that there are any anymore but hypothetically speaking)?
I'm not saying Turkey shouldn't have some say in Cyprus because of the TCs but invading a country against the interests of 82% of her inhabitants is about as aggressive as you can get.

If they lose Cyprus Turkey will be surrounded by Greece and greek satellite state from all sides in the mediteranean.

With the greatest respect Turkey gave up Cyprus in 1915 when she declared war on Britain. Similarly Greece never had Cyprus either.
Cyprus is Cypriot and belongs to it's people. Turkey should embrace that and build good relations with Cyprus then the fact that 80% of the population is Greek will not mean a thing. She's already doing it with Greece where 97% of the population is Greek, why can't she do it with Cyprus. Turkey has a pivotal role to play for peace in the Eastern Med.

[bg_turk]

Alexis,

I did not say all of this to justify the turkish operation/invasion/intervention/occupation, call it what you will, I just said it to give you the reasons why Turkey did it.

Imo it would have been much better if Turkey intervened to safeguard the rights of GCs as well and try to tilt public opinion in Cyprus in its own favor against the fashist colonels in Greece. This would have been the best type of intervention, in terms of the human rights aspect.
But Turkish national interests at the time dictated that Turkey's long term influence on the island would be best safeguarded by the creation of a Turkish Cypriots state. In this respect Turkey acted in order to enable TCs to create such a state, and did not restore the constitutional order, violated your human rights, and partitioned the island.

EOKA and the fight of enosis gave Turkey an excellend excuse to intervene and she simply took advantage of the siuation. Greece would have done the same, I do not doubt it.

I do not say it was good she did that, but I am simply giving you my interpreation of why those events took place.

For the above reasons I do not believe Turkish troops will vacate the north of the island any time soon as long as the existence of some form of turkish autonomy or turkish cypriot component state is not guaranteed by a final settlement.

[Kifeas]

Do you honestly expect anybody to belive that in the case of a complete turkish withdrawal and a security vacuum in the north, the south will remain idle and not reclaim the territory that "rightfully" belongs to it?

Hi bg,

What about the Turkish Cypriots? I might have this totally wrong but I was told that TCs do military service + maintain professional units and number close to 5000 at any one time. I don't know under what structure the TCs serve but presumably there is a TC corps in existence. This of course would not leave Cyprus and, alongside a modicum of Turkish troops (say the 650 allowed by the RoC constitution), and air superiority would be more than enough of a deterrent to the CNG (which doesn't number much more than 10000 anyway).
Of course this would be coupled with a proportionate withdrawal of Greek troops from Cyprus. Both sides would have access to reservist and the GCs Have more of those, but remember that these would almost certainly take longer to mobilise than the Turkish Army would to reach Cyprus in the event of conflict. The presence of such a large Turkish Army does nothing for the TC cause imo.

Alexios, we are talking for an absolute and complete demilitarisation and a takeover of total security by a re-enforced UN contingent with a mandate under chapter 7 of the UN charter.

No GC, no TC, no secret GC, no secret TC, no mainland Turkish and no mainland Greek troops and weapons.

[Kifeas]

So in short people begin to wonder why Turkey needs such a large force here and begin thinking (despite Turkeys denials) that her interests in Cyprus are more than just the protection of TCs.

Alexis,

of course Turkey's motives are more than the protection of the TC community, Cyprus is a strategically located island for Turkey.

Exactly! At least you got this one right!

If they lose Cyprus Turkey will be surrounded by Greece and greek satellite state from all sides in the mediteranean.

Cyprus is neither a Greek island, nor a Greek satellite state. It is an independed country and now an independed member of the EU, with a by communal character.

Listen Bg_turk, we are not going to change our 3,500 years old language so that we will prove to you or anyone else that we are not elephants. Forget it!

Either you like us or not, we are who we are and the whole of Cyprus belongs to us in the same way that the whole of it belongs to the TCs. We happen to be the majority and this is a fact that no matter how you or anyone else resents, it remains a fact and we demand that this is recognised and respected.

If Turkey has some paranoid and /or megalomaniac difficulties, it is not our problem and there are psychiatrists for this purpose. Soon they will realise that we don’t live any longer neither in the Middle-Ages nor in the time of the Ottomans. The doctrine of "vital and /or strategic space" (lands) had been a Nazi and a fascist one. Turkey is free to continue following it, but it will remain at the same time and outlaw and an off-scouring of the international community.

[Alexis]

bg_turk,

Don't get me wrong, I know the point you are trying to make has nothing
to do with justifying the Turkish 'operation', but when you say that Turkey should keep the crazy number of troops she has on the island because she does not want to 'lose' the island you are implying that she now somehow 'owns' Northern Cyprus. I am sure that is not exactly what you meant, but the fact remains that either Turkey was originally legally there for the protection of TCs, despite her unecessarilly prolonged stay there, or she has occupied North Cyprus for her own aims. All the current evidence points to the later, not least because of her prolonged stay but also because of the sheer number of troops that she has stationed.
My main point is that there is no reason for this vast number and that these surplus troops do nothing for the TC cause.
In effect a halving of the Turkish presence in Cyprus would actually be a favour to the TCs as it would send a message to the international community that the troops are only there to protect TCs and that Turkey is serious about unfication of the island.

[Alexis]

Alexios, we are talking for an absolute and complete demilitarisation and a takeover of total security by a re-enforced UN contingent with a mandate under chapter 7 of the UN charter.

No GC, no TC, no secret GC, no secret TC, no mainland Turkish and no mainland Greek troops and weapons.

I agree, that's the best solution provided it is bilaterally agreed and implemented by both sides (TC and GC). In the meantime though I question Turkey's need for posting 40,000 troops in Cyprus, and above all the TCs need for having so many of them. In fact I think the withdrawal of some Turkish troops will do the TC cause a lot of good in the international arena.

[bg_turk]

Cyprus is neither a Greek island, nor a Greek satellite state. It is an independed country and now an independed member of the EU, with a by communal character.

The foreign policies of both countries are virtually identical on almost every policy issue, including the name of slavic macedonia. The greek flag is flying in every corner of the Republic.

Listen Bg_turk, we are not going to change our 3,500 years old language so that we will prove to you or anyone else that we are not elephants. Forget it!

Listen Kifeas, you are too much of an idealist and you seem trustworthy in your comittment to civic society and your pledges that a uniatry state will respect the rights of all Cypriot citizens, with the exception of your sometimes violent outbursts, but not all GCs are like yourself. Some TCs like Birkibrisli, may be willing to take the risk, and believe that you represent all GCs and that you are going to live in peace happily ever after, but most TCs won't.

Nobody is going to risk the future of their own children with another bloody conflict so that your "3500" years old roots in the north are preserved.

If Turkey has some paranoid and /or megalomaniac difficulties, it is not our problem and there are psychiatrists for this purpose. Soon they will realise that we don’t live any longer neither in the Middle-Ages nor in the time of the Ottomans. The doctrine of "vital and /or strategic space" (lands) had been a Nazi and a fascist one. Turkey is free to continue following it, but it will remain at the same time and outlaw and an off-scouring of the international community.

Turkey is not the first megalomaniac country to establish itself in Cyprus, and it will not be the last one. Like the "fascists" country named Britain, Turkey will continue to pursue its strategic interests on the island I am afraid to the detriment of your community.
I do not know whether you will be able to entire reverse this trend, and once again subjugate TCs as a minority. I hope not.

[bg_turk]

My main point is that there is no reason for this vast number and that these surplus troops do nothing for the TC cause.

Alexis,

at least be sincere. What is your concern with Turkish troops? That they have done nothing for the TC cause.

Of course not, you have been negatively affected by those troops, and you want to return to your land, you want these troops to be defeated and destroyed. These troops are preventing you from enjoying your homeland, and you naturally want their withdrawal, so that you can return.

What does it matter whether there is a surplus or a deficit of troops at all? If the RoC has absolutely no intention of attacking, the situation on the ground won't change for anybody if 5000 troops are sent back. How will this be a goodwill measure at all?

[zan]

I hope some of you realised that my extreme comments of yesterday were solely meant for main_sources extreme comments and not entirely my honest view of things.

I am however having trouble understanding the way you guys are thinking. I don’t believe that an all out war or invasion from either side is the basis of the fears of the Cypriots. It was not all out war that started this whole affair. The Cypriots of the time could not compete in all out war against the British so they started guerrilla warfare. It was the actions of a small group of people that terrorised their own as well as seeking ENOSIS that is still in the minds of TCs. It is of course used as a political football as and when required but it is none the less still in some peoples minds. I know some of you want to forget all of this and so do I but it is like ignoring a cancer that is obviously still felt in the testicles of Cyprus history. I don’t think that any right thinking person believes that either side will mass on the boarder and start firing rockets over night. If there is to be a war, relations will have to take a nosedive and I don’t think that the EU or the UN will allow that. Turkish troops were allowed in because of a breakdown of relations in Cyprus. We can, and have, argued about why those things happened but they did. Greece and Turkey have been vying for position for a long time and have used Cyprus when ever and where ever they can. Greeks refusing to except that time moves on, wanted land back during the first and second war and were thwarted both times by not only Turkey but double crossed by others. The Turks new that Cyprus would be a good bargaining chip when it came to Europe.

The TCs have mixed feelings about the presence of the Turkish army. A feeling of comfort, of gratitude, of pride and of fear all exist. Every time I hear the GCs asking for the removal of the Turkish soldiers I cant help but think, why? Sorry but that’s the way it is. You can all choose to ignore it and pooh pooh the feeling but its there. I have no fear of the known in the GC population, it is the unknown that is always the scary part and I am afraid that no amount of assurance will take that fear away. Like Vassos says it will need a length of time with good lasting relations that will undoubtedly be the final cure. I also see the playing around with the numbers of troops on the island as a futile one. However if fewer numbers will make the GCs feel safer, then I think the Turks should look into the matter seriously. I’m hopeful that they can at least come to an agreed number on that, can’t they?

[Alexis]

So you doubt my sincerity?
I never said that Turkish troops have done nothing for the TC cause.
They obviously did in 1974 to a certain degree.
I simply question what they are doing for that cause right now and for the last 30 years.
Even then I do not include all of them, just the vast majority.
I.E A large surplus of troops exists.
Do you really believe 40,000 troops are what it takes to deter any GC action in Northern Cyprus and/or protect TCs there?

To GC it does not matter whether there are 40,000 or 5000, we would prefer zero of course. So yes it makes little difference to GCs.
In fact I would back that up by saying that any withdrawal of troops should not be looked upon as a confidence building measure or goodwill gesture as it gives the GCs almost nothing. Turkey continually tells the world she has no designs on Cyprus and that she is there as a protector of TCs only. I simply think that she has other motives and that these are nothing to do with the TCs. So to be honest, personally it doesn't bother me in the slightest how many troops are withdrawn unless of course that withdrawal is as you have stated before coupled with a comprehensive settlement agreed by both parties.
It is not enough to say that because Turkey, Britain or Greece are big powers that they will always have a big influence on Cyprus. Why should they? It's not their country, if we say they should go they should go end of story. Kifeas vision of a demilitarised Cyprus with a UN protectorate is a good aim imo. Perhaps in 50 years time we can have a federal professional army with recruits from both communities? By then we should be in a position where we are performing joint training exercise with the Greek and Turkish armies rather than drawing up plans for war with them. Imagine how different and refreshing that world would be?