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Cyprus Property BOOM ...

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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Paphitis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:50 pm

B25 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
B25 wrote:No, GIG, from your comment: 'From what I notice, cash buyers seem to drive harder bargaining power - and so they have still not had an offer accepted.'

They haven't had any offer accepted because they are vultures, just because they have cash, they think they are lords and that people should just give them their property. These people are pigs, they don't even offer a fair price, they just take advantage of other peoples misfortunes.

Cash, mortgage, pink money, yellow money, it's all just money in the end and that's what the sellers want.

I guess they should just keep hold of their CASH.


They are not vultures at all... :roll:

It is a buyers market and they have cash...

It is up to the seller to accept or decline the offer they make...

In the case I gave above, the seller (the bank) chose to decline an offer of €70,000 for one of the €90,000 apartments that now sits on their books for €130,000 (plus unpaid interest presumably). I suspect in the long-term that will be a mistake.


Just walk away! Maybe come back in a few months and offer 60k. In the meantime they can look at other property and maybe buy something else.

It is a buyers market. Hopefully young Cypriots can use this time to crack the market.


Yeah ok, young Cypriots don't have any money. Many are now without a job, and the banks will not lend them. Just goes to show that you are talking out of your rear end on this one.


Yes I know B25. It will be tough for sure.

Hopefully they can get help from their families or something.
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Mik » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:21 pm

In a perfect world, all the empty properties around the island would be sold off (at a price to cover costs) or even a rent to buy scheme to the First time buyers and young couples.
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Jerry » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:38 pm

Mik wrote:In a perfect world, all the empty properties around the island would be sold off (at a price to cover costs) or even a rent to buy scheme to the First time buyers and young couples.



Ah yes a perfect world. :lol:

It was recently reported that in the perfect London borough of Camden there were 7000 empty properties. Many were bought by overseas buyers who want somewhere safe to stash their cash . The local authority has decided to withdraw some council tax concession on these un-occupied properties and second homes in an effort to force the owners to let them and, of course, to raise some cash for themselves.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/ma ... d-services
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Mik » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:57 pm

Upping the council tax isn't gonna help much if they can afford property in London and let it sit.....
I was talking about all the 'unsold' property in Cyprus either direct from the developers (who must need the cash surely its better to break even than take a loss?) or the ones that are now or soon to be on the Banks books. Just needs to be regulated then no undeserving people can use it to make a quick buck. First time buyers or Young Families only!
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:38 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
B25 wrote:No, GIG, from your comment: 'From what I notice, cash buyers seem to drive harder bargaining power - and so they have still not had an offer accepted.'

They haven't had any offer accepted because they are vultures, just because they have cash, they think they are lords and that people should just give them their property. These people are pigs, they don't even offer a fair price, they just take advantage of other peoples misfortunes.

Cash, mortgage, pink money, yellow money, it's all just money in the end and that's what the sellers want.

I guess they should just keep hold of their CASH.


They are not vultures at all... :roll:

It is a buyers market and they have cash...

It is up to the seller to accept or decline the offer they make...

In the case I gave above, the seller (the bank) chose to decline an offer of €70,000 for one of the €90,000 apartments that now sits on their books for €130,000 (plus unpaid interest presumably). I suspect in the long-term that will be a mistake.


No, they're certainly not vultures - negotiating for the best deal has always been the case with property buying.

I can understand why the bank is not prepared to accept lower offers. They are probably better off holding onto property as an asset. Bad loans are written off but assets help. Maybe in the UK where markets are characteristically very volatile, and there is a huge repossession rate since Thatcherism, the banks get rid of property below market values. But certainly in Greece, just a few years ago, we inquired about a house that was repossessed because the breadwinner had (sadly) died unexpectedly - we only inquired because this property backed onto ours and caused a minor problem which would have been alleviated if we owned that property too - but we were firmly told the bank will not take offers, nor was looking to sell particularly. They would hang onto the property for as long as need be (they are still hanging onto it - vacant - no advertising to sell). But maybe the Mediterranean countries are more used to property being a real asset over the long term and not to be used for quick fixes. I don't know if that's what the Cypriot bank you said had turned down offers is doing also. But it would make sense.
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:25 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
B25 wrote:No, GIG, from your comment: 'From what I notice, cash buyers seem to drive harder bargaining power - and so they have still not had an offer accepted.'

They haven't had any offer accepted because they are vultures, just because they have cash, they think they are lords and that people should just give them their property. These people are pigs, they don't even offer a fair price, they just take advantage of other peoples misfortunes.

Cash, mortgage, pink money, yellow money, it's all just money in the end and that's what the sellers want.

I guess they should just keep hold of their CASH.


They are not vultures at all... :roll:

It is a buyers market and they have cash...

It is up to the seller to accept or decline the offer they make...

In the case I gave above, the seller (the bank) chose to decline an offer of €70,000 for one of the €90,000 apartments that now sits on their books for €130,000 (plus unpaid interest presumably). I suspect in the long-term that will be a mistake.


No, they're certainly not vultures - negotiating for the best deal has always been the case with property buying.

I can understand why the bank is not prepared to accept lower offers. They are probably better off holding onto property as an asset. Bad loans are written off but assets help. Maybe in the UK where markets are characteristically very volatile, and there is a huge repossession rate since Thatcherism, the banks get rid of property below market values. But certainly in Greece, just a few years ago, we inquired about a house that was repossessed because the breadwinner had (sadly) died unexpectedly - we only inquired because this property backed onto ours and caused a minor problem which would have been alleviated if we owned that property too - but we were firmly told the bank will not take offers, nor was looking to sell particularly. They would hang onto the property for as long as need be (they are still hanging onto it - vacant - no advertising to sell). But maybe the Mediterranean countries are more used to property being a real asset over the long term and not to be used for quick fixes. I don't know if that's what the Cypriot bank you said had turned down offers is doing also. But it would make sense.


It is only an 'asset' if it has a real value and you can sell it...

Holding onto the deeds of a property at vastly over market value (and which you may never be able to sell in a market that is awash with two-bedroom apartments) is little more than fraud...

...which was the point of my earlier post... I fear the situation with the banks and therefore the property market itself could be very much worse than we fear...

And please, blaming Thatcher for anything 23 years after she left power is completely pathetic.... :roll:
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:32 pm

Only the most myopic would not see property as an asset. To Greeks it's even more than that - the sooner we return to reverence of hearth and home, and resist the pressure for quick bucks, the faster we shall regain our freedom.


Protecting Family Property
The powers of the early polis were limited by the same Greek tradition that served to protect private property: a deep respect—even worship—of the family. Unlike most states founded with the conquest of one people over another, the Greek polis had its origin in pacts, probably for defensive reasons, between neighboring clans and tribes. Each clan or tribe had its own traditions of worship, and each family had a sacred enclosure protecting its sacred hearth and flame. Families governed their own affairs. Even the marking of property boundaries was a religious ceremony. Thus the men of the early ages . . . arrived . . . by virtue of their belief, at the conception of the right of property; this right from which all civilization springs, since by it man improves the soil, and becomes improved himself.[3]
Though this religion made it difficult to transfer property between families, it provided powerful barriers to the expansion of government. Every transfer of property needed to be authorized by religion. If a man could not, or could only with difficulty, dispose of land, for a still stronger reason he could not be deprived of it against his will. The appropriation of land for public utility was unknown among the ancients. Confiscation was resorted to only in case of condemnation to exile.[4] Fustel de Coulanges also notes that this strict protection of property rights lasted until the later democratic age of Greek cities.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/p ... z2QknwcTsh

And no, I am not blaming Thatcher - but her legacies are still in effect.
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Oceanside50 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:51 pm

Very interesting article GreekIslandGirl, thanks for posting it.
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby Milo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:41 am

The Cyprus Property Scandal is Still Live......

In January 2007, in a Risk Watch article entitled ‘Who Will Clean the Augean Stable?’ I suggested that  it was then already ‘far too late for the government, the developers and the rest to put a convincing PR gloss on the colossal mess they have created for Cyprus’ in relation to the scandal of withheld title deeds and property fraud.

Collectively, I referred to the perpetrators as ‘white collar gangsters’. Very little of substance was done by the previous government to rectify the state of affairs. Indeed, ministers and their officials kept asserting that the scandal was a myth and the product of evil external forces and the international media.

When such a ludicrous position became unsustainable, they admitted there was a problem with non-issuance of title deeds and resorted to a plan in 2010 to clear the backlog of 130,000 non-issued deeds.

Unfortunately, the plan had barely scratched the surface of the backlog by the end of 2012. Moreover, by then Cyprus was heading for bankruptcy and had been forced in June 2012 to apply for an EU bailout.

The Troika (EU, ECB and IMF) which evaluated Cyprus’s debt position noted, in its memorandum to the Cyprus government of the required actions, that while exposure to Greece’s debt problems had been instrumental in the crisis for Cyprus banks, many of the latter’s problems were home grown and related to over-expansion in the property sector as a consequence of the banks’ poor risk management.

Further, the memorandum required the government by end of quarter 4 of 2014 to ‘eliminate the title deeds issuance backlog to less than 2,000 cases’ that remained pending for more than 1 year.

While the Land Registry offices may be able to become more efficient to achieve this issuance target, it is quite another proposition to transfer those deeds issued to developers to their rightful owners – the buyers who have already paid for the property in full. Non-discharged developer mortgages as well as the developer’s unpaid taxes are a real stumbling block to transfer that many buyers are facing.

The Inland Revenue appears to be supine in forcing developers to pay their outstanding taxes, while the banks seem terrified of getting developers to service their loan and mortgage debts.

Under the eagle eye of the Troika technocrats, the banks, who for years have had a lax lending policy towards developers, will now have to take action on developer Non-Performing Loans.

If developers are unable to service their loans or discharge their debts, the prospect of developer bankruptcies followed by ‘fire sale’ disposal of repossessed properties looms much larger. But, in this economic climate and a flat property market, will there be new buyers even for apparent bargains? And, what about all those existing buyers, mainly foreigners who have paid in full and never been a party to the developer’s mortgages but nonetheless find themselves the victims of attempted bank liquidation, as in the Liasides collapse and other cases?

Effective government intervention in this matter is not only urgently needed but failure to render it would amount to complicity in what has been described as sovereign corruption. This is an early test of President Anastasiades’ commitment to clean up Cyprus. How could he achieve a rapid clean-up of the title deeds mess?

One obvious major action would be the establishment of a ‘bad bank’ specifically for developer debts, along the lines of the already successful National Asset Management Authority (NAMA) set up in Ireland in response to its EU bailout problems. This would prevent developers going bankrupt while protecting the interests of property buyers and the state’s finances.

Such a proposal was put (by CPAG) to a previous Finance Minister Mr Sarris several years ago, as well as other influential parties since then, but ignored. Will President Anastasiades and his new Finance Minister Mr Georgiades act decisively on this now to prevent the total destruction of the property sector?

http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... id=0014626?
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Re: Cyprus Property BOOM ...

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:21 am

Milo wrote:The Cyprus Property Scandal is Still Live......

In January 2007, ... moan moan moan


Chill out, will ya?

You need to learn to take the good with the bad.

A lot of the problems were caused through choice not to pay Property Transfer Fees.
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