Cyprus-Forum.com

[lucius]

Hello there,

First of all, yes i am a German who really enjoyed my past stays in Cyprus (and Greece),hopefully i can do this in future as well. My last vacation was in Corfu, so no anti-Greek here. I even stayed in Cyprus for a couple of months a few years ago. "Some" here in this Forum and surely in Cyprus call as filthy Krauts (e.g, Poster "Cap")

cyprus40202.html#p749734


Well, i find that exaggerated and unfair but surely the Germanophopie is a result of the euro.

The euro surely doesn´t fit for all countries. Most can see that now, even as I must say that failing banks and the euro are not interconnected (e.g. Iceland - no euro, but still failing banks). Surely the so called european debt crisis is connected with the euro, it doesn´t fit to all. It doesn´t fit to Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, maybe even France. It maybe does not work for Cyprus either. But, you certainly can not blame the troika or the Germans for the results now. Not Germany forced you in the EU and euro, you did that by your own decision. You can not blame the Germans (Troika whatever) for that. Some may point out that the cypriot bank would not have failed without a Greek haircut. Maybe not for now, but one other incident in the future would have wrecked them. Uncontrolled banks will destroy a country sooner or later.

I know its easier to find a scapegoat for the misery, but that will not help. If you ever want to overcome it, you have to work. Look at Iceland, surely they were angry at first. They did not had the luxury to blame other countries for their misery, but angry they were. But, they overcame that quickly, and look where they are now, just a few years after? Unemployment falls and debt shrinks.

Certainly banking sector in cyprus as a important economic factor is gone, so it is in Iceland. You should not try to push it up in future. Well, you could if you want, but i can´t recommend it. Big banking can wreck even the most healthiest economies. You have to find alternative ways for future revenues. If getting out of the euro can help, than for god sake get out of it!

Believe me, most Germans hate it being called nazis and do not want to force their view on others - imaginary or real. Certainly they don´t like to be the bad guys all over Southern Europe. I am sure they would rather much be on the sidelines of all that. But, even if they did that, that would not be liked by all either. I rather think that it is more a problem of Northern and Southern europe than of Germany against the other.

Hopefully Cyprus get out of all that mess. I wish you luck. Maybe see you someday in Paphos, Polis or the Ledra Street in United Nicosia - or on the streets of Stuttgart, Munich or Berlin like many Greeks, Italians or other Southern Europeans.

Take care

[die7]

thank you!

from another kraut, married with a Cypriot, living here for years, still refusing to turn a blind eye to the fact how the big money changed the mentality of too many people here but still awaiting delvelopments that get everybody to bethink of the meaning of life.

[ludo1981]

from a Französisch, you are welcome in CYprus

[Tim Drayton]

I can by all means understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans at having to bail out Mediterranean country after Mediterranean country. I know that the mass media in Germany have fed people with the idea that the Cyprus banking system was all about money laundering and the lazy islanders have just got used to living an easy life off the proceeds. People have been told that the old Cypriot model has ended. I don't think that all of this stands up to scrutiny. Cyprus has for four decades been a successful international business centre with banking as one of its main planks. The comparison with Iceland is not totally valid; Cyprus has not mainly attracted deposits by offering unsustainably high interest rates. As a British self-employed resident, I can assure you that there are other reasons that make Cyprus attractive as a place to do business, such as low taxes, a non-intrusive bureaucracy, efficient utility companies, good banking and financial services. This is all underpinned by a hard working and well educated workforce. As I see it, the banking and business services in Cyprus was a goose that lay golden eggs. That goose has been killed now that confidence in the banking sector has been destroyed. It is all very well to implore Cypriots to go off and do other things, but what else on a small island like this will add the kind of value that was added by the banking and business sectors? Fine, if Cyprus had no debt, everybody could either return to the grandfathers' villages and till the soil, or open businesses in the tourism sector. However, neither of these activities will bring in the same returns, and GDP as a consequence will shrink. The fact is that Cyprus has become saddled with 10 billion euro in debt and, with the goose that laid the golden egg killed, will probably be unable to repay that debt. Is this really in the interests of Germans? Wouldn't they rather get their money back with interest?

[die7]

..... maybe they already have the billions that were carried out from Cyprus during the last days, also from the former 'Mr. President' C!

[lucius]

I can by all means understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans at having to bail out Mediterranean country after Mediterranean country. I know that the mass media in Germany have fed people with the idea that the Cyprus banking system was all about money laundering and the lazy islanders have just got used to living an easy life off the proceeds. People have been told that the old Cypriot model has ended. I don't think that all of this stands up to scrutiny. Cyprus has for four decades been a successful international business centre with banking as one of its main planks. The comparison with Iceland is not totally valid; Cyprus has not mainly attracted deposits by offering unsustainably high interest rates. As a British self-employed resident, I can assure you that there are other reasons that make Cyprus attractive as a place to do business, such as low taxes, a non-intrusive bureaucracy, efficient utility companies, good banking and financial services. This is all underpinned by a hard working and well educated workforce. As I see it, the banking and business services in Cyprus was a goose that lay golden eggs. That goose has been killed now that confidence in the banking sector has been destroyed. It is all very well to implore Cypriots to go off and do other things, but what else on a small island like this will add the kind of value that was added by the banking and business sectors? Fine, if Cyprus had no debt, everybody could either return to the grandfathers' villages and till the soil, or open businesses in the tourism sector. However, neither of these activities will bring in the same returns, and GDP as a consequence will shrink. The fact is that Cyprus has become saddled with 10 billion euro in debt and, with the goose that laid the golden egg killed, will probably be unable to repay that debt. Is this really in the interests of Germans? Wouldn't they rather get their money back with interest?

Actually i don´t think that ordinary Germans are that angry by the bail out itself, more because of the negative reaction afterwards. Sure Cyprus is a small Island economy in comparison. The EU could have payed all 17 billion as not a loan but a gift. But, what message would have send for Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc.? They would have demanded that as well. Giving Cyprus all 17 billion as a loan without restructuring the banking sector would have at least put the state debt to unsustainable levels. Even that would not have helped because some of this banks, like Laiki probably were "Zombie"-banks for months before. And the destruction of the banking sector surely had a helping hand from inept politicians in Cyprus.

I am not saying that the banking and financial sector was a bad idea from the start. It did work until now. Some small countries have a comparable banking sector size. The difference is the other have not failed - yet. If they would i dont think they would get a better deal then Cyprus did. The fact now is that the financial industry of Cyprus is history for now - doesn´t help much to examine the mistakes of others or yourselves. Only thing remains is to make plans for the future. I believe that domestic banks in Cyprus will not play much of a role in future, but it might still attract foreign ones. They also would not pose much of a danger to the economy as long as they would know that no one would bail them out.

Surely they are no easy solutions in the short term. I hope that Cyprus doesn´t repeat the mistakes Greece did. I do believe that getting out of the euro would help a lot. Maybe take the bailout money - put it in a fund and prepare an exit? Sure, IMF, Merkel etc. will be furious, but a devalued currency would certainly not stop German or other European tourists from going on a cheap vacation. It certainly boost the tourism economy. That would help at least until other industries are created like gas deposits. If a deal with "Northern Cyprus" could be achieved that might also help. Maybe IT & internet services? Certainly they are possibilities. I am not saying it would be easy, but it could be a lot worse. They are still some options open.

I don´t think that many in Germany do expect that most of the bailout money will be paid back anyway. Certainly not in case of Greece. But, screw that money as long as the economy recovers.

[Tim Drayton]

I can by all means understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans at having to bail out Mediterranean country after Mediterranean country. I know that the mass media in Germany have fed people with the idea that the Cyprus banking system was all about money laundering and the lazy islanders have just got used to living an easy life off the proceeds. People have been told that the old Cypriot model has ended. I don't think that all of this stands up to scrutiny. Cyprus has for four decades been a successful international business centre with banking as one of its main planks. The comparison with Iceland is not totally valid; Cyprus has not mainly attracted deposits by offering unsustainably high interest rates. As a British self-employed resident, I can assure you that there are other reasons that make Cyprus attractive as a place to do business, such as low taxes, a non-intrusive bureaucracy, efficient utility companies, good banking and financial services. This is all underpinned by a hard working and well educated workforce. As I see it, the banking and business services in Cyprus was a goose that lay golden eggs. That goose has been killed now that confidence in the banking sector has been destroyed. It is all very well to implore Cypriots to go off and do other things, but what else on a small island like this will add the kind of value that was added by the banking and business sectors? Fine, if Cyprus had no debt, everybody could either return to the grandfathers' villages and till the soil, or open businesses in the tourism sector. However, neither of these activities will bring in the same returns, and GDP as a consequence will shrink. The fact is that Cyprus has become saddled with 10 billion euro in debt and, with the goose that laid the golden egg killed, will probably be unable to repay that debt. Is this really in the interests of Germans? Wouldn't they rather get their money back with interest?

Actually i don´t think that ordinary Germans are that angry by the bail out itself, more because of the negative reaction afterwards. Sure Cyprus is a small Island economy in comparison. The EU could have payed all 17 billion as not a loan but a gift. But, what message would have send for Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc.? They would have demanded that as well. Giving Cyprus all 17 billion as a loan without restructuring the banking sector would have at least put the state debt to unsustainable levels. Even that would not have helped because some of this banks, like Laiki probably were "Zombie"-banks for months before. And the destruction of the banking sector surely had a helping hand from inept politicians in Cyprus.

I am not saying that the banking and financial sector was a bad idea from the start. It did work until now. Some small countries have a comparable banking sector size. The difference is the other have not failed - yet. If they would i dont think they would get a better deal then Cyprus did. The fact now is that the financial industry of Cyprus is history for now - doesn´t help much to examine the mistakes of others or yourselves. Only thing remains is to make plans for the future. I believe that domestic banks in Cyprus will not play much of a role in future, but it might still attract foreign ones. They also would not pose much of a danger to the economy as long as they would know that no one would bail them out.

Surely they are no easy solutions in the short term. I hope that Cyprus doesn´t repeat the mistakes Greece did. I do believe that getting out of the euro would help a lot. Maybe take the bailout money - put it in a fund and prepare an exit? Sure, IMF, Merkel etc. will be furious, but a devalued currency would certainly not stop German or other European tourists from going on a cheap vacation. It certainly boost the tourism economy. That would help at least until other industries are created like gas deposits. If a deal with "Northern Cyprus" could be achieved that might also help. Maybe IT & internet services? Certainly they are possibilities. I am not saying it would be easy, but it could be a lot worse. They are still some options open.

I don´t think that many in Germany do expect that most of the bailout money will be paid back anyway. Certainly not in case of Greece. But, screw that money as long as the economy recovers.

I think you have missed my point. I understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans, and I want them to get their 10 billion back with interest. My point is, if you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, there is no way that Cyprus can pay this money back based on activities like subsistence agriculture and cheap package tourism. It will not fill the gap left by the loss of the banking and business services sector.

[lucius]

I think you have missed my point. I understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans, and I want them to get their 10 billion back with interest. My point is, if you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, there is no way that Cyprus can pay this money back based on activities like subsistence agriculture and cheap package tourism. It will not fill the gap left by the loss of the banking and business services sector.

Well, the chicken and egg problem, which came first? Did the failing banks caused the bailout or the other way around? I think the banks failed before the need for the bailout came. Once banks fail it´s often not possible to retrieve them. Certainly not after you crossed a threshold, which has been crossed. Maybe it is better to let them fail, otherwise other banks might be encouraged to risk even more. So, they let them fail. That has happened. Whos to blame doesn´t help in present and future, that was my point.

[kurupetos]

I think you have missed my point. I understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans, and I want them to get their 10 billion back with interest. My point is, if you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, there is no way that Cyprus can pay this money back based on activities like subsistence agriculture and cheap package tourism. It will not fill the gap left by the loss of the banking and business services sector.

Well, the chicken and egg problem, which came first? Did the failing banks caused the bailout or the other way around? I think the banks failed before the need for the bailout came. Once banks fail it´s often not possible to retrieve them. Certainly not after you crossed a threshold, which has been crossed. Maybe it is better to let them fail, otherwise other banks might be encouraged to risk even more. So, they let them fail. That has happened. Whos to blame doesn´t help in present and future, that was my point.

Why not?

[Maximus]

I think you have missed my point. I understand the anger felt by ordinary Germans, and I want them to get their 10 billion back with interest. My point is, if you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, there is no way that Cyprus can pay this money back based on activities like subsistence agriculture and cheap package tourism. It will not fill the gap left by the loss of the banking and business services sector.

Well, the chicken and egg problem, which came first? Did the failing banks caused the bailout or the other way around? I think the banks failed before the need for the bailout came. Once banks fail it´s often not possible to retrieve them. Certainly not after you crossed a threshold, which has been crossed. Maybe it is better to let them fail, otherwise other banks might be encouraged to risk even more. So, they let them fail. That has happened. Whos to blame doesn´t help in present and future, that was my point.

Why not?

No prognosis, no diagnosis and prevention is always better than cure.

'who is to blame' must also be addressed to a certain extent to address whether there has been any 'criminal' negligence.