Cyprus-Forum.com

[mehmet]

Not much change while I've been away from reading the posts since I got back. The Olympics has been taking place and the drug testing issue with Kederis has been taking up a lot of space in both the Turkish and English papers I was reading. One Athenian declared that in a Sunday paper that this athlete who has boats and roads named after him was a traitor and should be hung. His neighbour disagreed with him saying he should be shot.

I have been disturbed to see the term traitor continue to be applied on this forum. I wondered if I was being oversensitive ('sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'). I even wondered if perhaps something gets lost in the translation and that in Greek perhaps the word has a different emphasis than it has in English. I then started reading a biography on Ataturk and became reminded that notions of right and wrong and how these get applied in national conflicts is not just a Greek issue.

I am making a plea that discussion take place in a more civilised manner than has been the case, I know where to go if I want to read nationalist rhetoric I don't come here for it.

[Piratis]

Personally I wouldn't call Kenderis a traitor. The whole system is wrong. Sports became too commercialized, athletes are now professionals, people want the "show to go on" with more and more records etc. Saying that Kenderis is a traitor is like using him as a scapegoat without dealing with the real problems.

The word in Greek has the same emphasis as in English, maybe even more.

I would say that the are different degrees of treason, as there are different degrees of murders and other crimes.

In some cases we can simply avoid calling them traitors, and call them idiots, is we assume that they are not in the position to realize the damage they make to their countries.

In any case I disagree that "civilized" means closing our eyes and letting anybody that wishes to damage our country.
This is what was done before 1974. If the rest of us didn't tolerate the acts of a small minority (EOKA-B) and we were treating those people the way traitors should be treated, maybe we wouldn't be in this position today.

[Bananiot]

Well, I believe the word traitor has also another subtle meaning in Greek. In many cases we look for "traitors" to lay the blame for our shortcomings. If we don´t find one we duly create one.

This is because we never like to admit that we lost because the opponent was better than us. The damage is always done by traitors or "efialtes" litterary meaning nightmares, because that was the name of the traitor in 480 BC that led the Persian army under Xerxes to bypass Thermopylaes and take care of the small army of Leonidas.

Since then, corrupt politicians and naive followers conveniently look for traitor to lay the blame and ... national pride saved!

As far as Kenteris is concerned, I beleive the issue is over blown. The reason people adored him is clearly because he gave them the opportunity to feel national pride as a winning sportsman. Now that he was found to cheat, he will pay for it and he is already complaining that the thousands of people that wanted to be photographed with him have now disappeared. You know, everybody, more or less, suspected that something fishy was taking place, but everything was fine, as long he wasn´t caught. That is part of our hypocricy, but people who need sporting success to fuel their sense of national security should remember that a country that used to come in the first 3 in recent Olympics today does not even exist.

[Piratis]

This is because we never like to admit that we lost because the opponent was better than us. The damage is always done by traitors or "efialtes" litterary meaning nightmares, because that was the name of the traitor in 480 BC that led the Persian army under Xerxes to bypass Thermopylaes and take care of the small army of Leonidas.

Maybe Leonidas and his 300 men would have lost anyways. But does that make Efialtes less of a traitor? It doesn't matter if the enemy actually needed your help or not. It doesn't matter if the enemy managed to win using your help or not. What matters, and whats makes a traitor, is that you do what you can to help our enemy to harm us.

Yes, some "realists" of the time could say that the opponent (Persians) was stronger. But now it is a historical fact that the outnumbered Greeks finally managed to win and save Greece from the Persians.
And yes, the once superpower Soviet union doesn't exist anymore. This is the case of all other superpowers and empires in our history.
This is just to show to you, that the balance of power is keep changing, and with this change of balance the "realities" change as well.

What we fight for is just, is fair. It is based on nothing more than human rights and international laws. The traitors will always exist but they can not stop us from our just straggle.

[MicAtCyp]

And there are those who just can’t be heros. The easiest alternative to become famous is to be traitors. The only problem is that the applause comes from the wrong side.

[mehmet]

Perhaps too predictably the insults have continued since I made a plea for debate in a more 'civilised'manner. I never said anything about closing your eyes.

Piratis, can I just get this right? To you a traitor is someone who works against the national interest? To you the national interest is defined by the result on April 24th? Therefore anyone who continues to argue against the results is a traitor?

Just imagine you was in the minority on April 24th. Would you accept that you had to suffer the consequences of being in the minority and not to continue to argue for what in your heart you believed was right?

[Piratis]

To you a traitor is someone who works against the national interest?

Correct.

To you the national interest is defined by the result on April 24th?

Correct.

Therefore anyone who continues to argue against the results is a traitor?

Definitely not!!

Arguing in favor of the Annan plan can not harm the national interest.

But is this what Bananiot is doing? His main topic is that Papadopoulos, our democratically elected president, supposedly wants partition!! , or that the occupation is the fault of Greek Cypriots!!

Basically he simply reproduces the most extreme Turkish propaganda.
This kind of propaganda can hurt the national interests (after all thats why propaganda exists), and it can hurt them way more when it is produced from "our" people.

Bananiot has nothing to do with the 24% of the people that voted "yes". Most of them love their country, and even if they disagree with the majority they would never say something that can be used against us.

[Bananiot]

Stop talking rubbish Piratis. If I thought that our democratically elected president is leading our country to partition I would shout it at the top of my voice for everyone to hear. Just like you shout that 2 former, democratically elected presidents (Vasiliou and Clerides) are traitors. You hand prerogaives to your self but the same prerogatives you deny to others. How can you be so pathetic. I and everybody else has the right to question the policy of our present government and your lack of political culture leads you to believe that this is treason. Wake up Piratis, this is the 21st century we are living in.

[Piratis]

First of all, I never said online or anywhere that non Cypriots could read/listen it that Cleredes or Vasiliou are traitors while they were presidents.

So because you think that our president is leading our country to partition it means that you have to do everything possible to help this bad prediction of yours come true?

Why do you propagandize these things in an English forum? Do you expect the Turks or the Americans to come and remove our president? The only ones that can remove him are us, the people that voted him in last elections. Do you think that with your provocative attitude you can change our mind about Papadopoulos? No, you achieve exactly the opposite results and you know this very well.

So if your aim is not to change the mind of people that vote for Papadopoulos so this "bad" president will loose the presidency, then what is it?
I believe your aim is simple: You want your bad predictions to come true because your ego is higher than the love you have for your country. (if you have any). You are just a "bad looser" that can not accept the will of the majority, and you make everything you can to punish us because of our 100% democratic decision.

What you care about is not a good solution for the Cyprus problem. What you want is that one day you will be able to come and tell us "I was right!". Is this some kind of complex? Maybe you have some kind of trauma because your parents didn't buy you something that you wanted when you were kid? I really don't know how can somebody end up acting in such an irresponsible way like you.

[mehmet]

Piratis, thanks for your reply. Would you therefore agree with the assessment that a Turkish Cypriot who argues on these forums against Denktas is also a traitor (although not from a Greek Cypriot point of view) as he is still currently the elected leader of people living in the north?