Cyprus-Forum.com

[tsukoui]

I think the best solution would be to replace our interest based money debt system by a new money debt system WITHOUT interests.
See Silvio Gesell. Interest system works only after a war to construct a whole country, but once constructed, we should switch money system.

Keynes on Gesell's ideas:

The idea behind stamped money is sound. It is, indeed, possible that means might be found to apply it in practice on a modest scale. But there are many difficulties which Gesell did not face. In particular, he was unaware that money was not unique in having a liquidity-premium attached to it, but differed only in degree from many other articles, deriving its importance from having a greater liquidity-premium than any other article. Thus if currency notes were to be deprived of their liquidity-premium by the stamping system, a long series of substitutes would step into their shoes - bank-money, debts at call, foreign money, jewellery and the precious metals generally, and so forth. As I have mentioned above, there have been times when it was probably the craving for the ownership of land, independently of its yield, which served to keep up the rate of interest; - though under Gesell's system this possibility would have been eliminated by land nationalisation.

from http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/keynes/engl.htm

[tsukoui]

true capitalism doesnt need government intervention, we dont have pure capitalism, as you can see how theEU is intervening into peoples accounts, thats not capitalism...and with what we have now this problem will come up again, soon...what were seeing could be thought of as fascism, where government and big corporations work in unison....Big corporate banks teeter on bankruptcy and the government saves them....the stage after capitalism isnt anywhere on the horizon probably because everyone is in so much debt ie individuals and governments, who has time to look for the next stage...As for nonalignment, France,Italy cant afford to be nonaligned today, how can tiny Cyprus or Greece.

Ocean, I sympathize with market libertarians (at least those who don't belong to the capitalist class) because I think fundamentally their desires are the same as my own, namely the creation of a just world system. However, to my mind the idea that everything should be left to the market with no government does not add up. There are many problems, but fundamentally I don't see how you answer the criticisms of Marx.

As for nonalignment, you just have to believe in yourself

[poppy123]

Is the Cypriot Government truly acting in the best interest of its citizens? Initially we witnessed their suggestion to tax all depositors at 4%, including those with less than 100E balances. This was rejected thank goodness because it would have hit the poorest in society. The Cypriot plan to tap pension funds was also rejected because Germany warned that such a measure would be too painful for ordinary Cypriot citizens.

I now read that a 20% levy has been suggested for the Bank of Cyprus and 4% for all other banks with balances above 100E.
Yet only 10% of money in the Bank of Cyprus is Russian. Cypriot depositors account for 66% and Greek 23%. Are they putting their relations with the Russians before that of their citizens?

[Oceanside50]

true capitalism doesnt need government intervention, we dont have pure capitalism, as you can see how theEU is intervening into peoples accounts, thats not capitalism...and with what we have now this problem will come up again, soon...what were seeing could be thought of as fascism, where government and big corporations work in unison....Big corporate banks teeter on bankruptcy and the government saves them....the stage after capitalism isnt anywhere on the horizon probably because everyone is in so much debt ie individuals and governments, who has time to look for the next stage...As for nonalignment, France,Italy cant afford to be nonaligned today, how can tiny Cyprus or Greece.

Ocean, I sympathize with market libertarians (at least those who don't belong to the capitalist class) because I think fundamentally their desires are the same as my own, namely the creation of a just world system. However, to my mind the idea that everything should be left to the market with no government does not add up. There are many problems, but fundamentally I don't see how you answer the criticisms of Marx.

As for nonalignment, you just have to believe in yourself

to my mind the idea that everything should be left to the market with no government does not add up

why doesnt it add up, a small police force, and defense and street cleaning....what else does the government need to do?...Didnt Marx say something to the effect,"when the means of production are established through capitalism then the transition to Communism can begin" or something like that....why would you assume like the "Soviets" that he meant the revolution would begin through poverty...or when workers are poor? they're poor now with all their debt why dont they revolt?.......

[johnny1]

perhaps germany is doing us somehow some good after all?

[cyprusgrump]

to my mind the idea that everything should be left to the market with no government does not add up

why doesnt it add up, a small police force, and defense and street cleaning....what else does the government need to do?...

Exactly!

And why hasn't the government shrunk to a fraction of its size (and cost) before joining the EU? Most decisions, rules, laws and taxes are made in Brussels now yet government remains the same size. What do they do all day?

The simple way out of the economic crisis is to slash the size of government, slash taxes and leave the market to itself...

[johnny1]

exactly
and i bet europe told them to shrink the governnment and government employees..but they would rather us have this

[tsukoui]

why doesnt it add up, a small police force, and defense and street cleaning....what else does the government need to do?...Didnt Marx say something to the effect,"when the means of production are established through capitalism then the transition to Communism can begin" or something like that....why would you assume like the "Soviets" that he meant the revolution would begin through poverty...or when workers are poor? they're poor now with all their debt why dont they revolt?.......

If you want to be fundamentalist about it, Marx said that the most developed capitalist countries would reach communism first, as you say, so you could argue that to hasten the arrival of communism we should be developing capitalism. In fact this is pretty much what the Chinese have argued. They reasoned that they couldn't get to communism from feudalism without going through capitalism first. So fine, you can push for that if you want. But history, as Marx realised, proceeds dialectically. In capitalism there is by definition class war. Presumably you would want to see a role for government in anti-union laws to prevent the introduction of the government interference that the unions call for. Indeed I suspect there would be quite a big role for government in your system for defending the free-market. The true dissolution of government comes with communism as Marx argued. Only when we reach communism will the government "wither away".

Can I ask you what your stance on monopolies is? Would you have government interference in the market to restrict them or would you allow them to develop naturally?

[Cap]

Where the fu** is BillC?
The fear mongering and doomsday scenarios are depressing.

We need some level headed input Sir William C!

maybe he knows something we don't ......

[cyprusgrump]

A key meeting of eurozone finance ministers to finalise a crucial bailout for Cyprus has been delayed as talks to hammer out an agreement overran.

President Nicos Anastasiades is locked in talks with EU, European Central Bank and IMF leaders in Brussels.

The finance ministers - know as the Eurogroup - must decide on Sunday whether or not to approve the bailout.

Cyprus needs to raise 5.8bn euros (£5bn) to qualify for a 10bn euro EU bailout and avoid bankruptcy.

A eurozone official said the Eurogroup meeting had been rescheduled for about 20:00 local time (19:00 GMT) from 18:00 because talks with Cypriot officials ahead of those discussions had overrun.

In another development on Sunday, Bank of Cyprus - the island's biggest lender - further limited cash machine withdrawals to 120 euros a day.

With queues growing outside cash machines across the island, the second biggest lender, Laiki (Popular) Bank, also lowered its daily limit to 100 euros, Cyprus News Agency reported. The bank's previous limit had been 260 euros per day.

Banks have been closed since Monday and many businesses are only taking payment in cash.

In the run-up to the crunch talks in Brussels, the EU's commissioner for economic affairs Olli Rehn said the island had only "hard choices left" and must agree terms on Sunday.