Cyprus-Forum.com

[B25]

Absolute BS, your very own Turk minister Davotoglu stated in his book Strategic Depth that ' Even if there was no muslim Turk on Cyprus, Turkey would still be there'

Which is just proof that Turkey has always looked for excuses to enter Cyprus and the sheep (read TCs) were used to achieve this. Word games are meaningless. The TCs were on Cyprus as guests, they had no rights to any form of self determination. If we take your Turkish logic, the UK (for instance) would be split in to hundreds of statelets with the mix of people living there. Why do you think 1 TC is worth 5 GCs, FFS.

[erolz66]

Word games are meaningless. The TCs were on Cyprus as guests, they had no rights to any form of self determination.

ENOSIS says that there is no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people. It says there are just a majority of people on Cyprus who are part of the unitary Greek people and some others. That is not word games it is just a fact. Once you say that, then clearly the TC are not part of the unitary Greek people and thus they must be part of some other people and as such they have an equal and separate right to self determination. It is enosis that says this and it says it regardless of who or what or how the TC community were.

If we take your Turkish logic, the UK (for instance) would be split in to hundreds of statelets with the mix of people living there.

If the English were to say that there is no such thing as the British people and that the English are in fact part of the unitary French people and we demand as an expression of the right to self determination of a unitary British people (that we say does not exist) we should be joined with France and that the Welsh and Scots who we say are not part of the French people and who themselves say are not part of the French people should have no say in also being forced to become part of France because the English outnumber them, then you would have an analogy closer to that of Cyprus.

Why do you think 1 TC is worth 5 GCs, FFS.

I do not think as individuals 1 TC is worth 5 GC. I do accept however that unitary groups as groups can and should and do have equal status as groups regardless of relative population sizes. When you declared with ENOSIS that I as a TC was not part of the 'group' you were in (whilst also trying to claim that you were doing so in the name of a group you said did not exist so that you could force this upon me against my groups will), I must have been part of some other group and as a group I had and have an equal status. Just as big people do not have more rights than little people as individuals, so too little groups do not automatically have less rights than bigger groups. If you had not chosen to be part of some group that by definition excluded me as a TC, but instead part of one that included me then there would have been little grounds for clamming that I was in a different group from you. When you chose to define yourselves as part of a different group from me you enhanced and strengthen my claim to be part of some other group.

You can not have it both ways. You can not claim that Cyprus is Greek AND claim that TC have no separate right to self determination. Yet this is exactly what you tried to do with the 'paradox'. Which failed by the way.

[Jerry]

There's no paradox because the TC "community" never integrated, never wanted to become "a unitary" people. They were offered repatriation to Turkey (Article 21) by the British after all Turkish claims to Cyprus were relinquished. Those who stayed knew Cyprus was a Greek island under the rule of the British. They had NO claims to Cyprus as a "Turkish" anything.

It has nothing to do with if the TC community integrated or not or thought of themselves as a unitary Cypriot people or not. Regardless of any of that, the GC claim that ENOSIS represented the genuine will of a unitary Cypriot people, whilst enosis also says there is no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people remains a paradox. It is a paradox in and of itself regardless of anything the TC community may or may not have done. You knew if you claimed enosis as a legitimate expression of the right to self determination of that section of the unitary Greek people that lived in Cyprus, then this would automatically grant TC an equal right to self determination as some other people. So you tried instead the 'paradoxical trick' and that did not work out for you either. That you remain unable after all this time to see these simple realties just shows how deep the issues at the core of the Cyprus problem still run today.

You are playing with words and over-complicating YOUR interpretation of the Cyprus problem.

Here's the ultimate paradox - the Turkish Cypriots have achieved exactly what you complain the Greek Cypriots wanted, union (that will never be internationally recognised without ROC approval) with the motherland. Because of the island's proximity to Turkey you will be digested by the mainland and disappear as a unitary community much sooner than could have ever happened under a democratic Greek Cypriot State.

[erolz66]

You are playing with words and over-complicating YOUR interpretation of the Cyprus problem.

Well it is easy to write off and ignore anything you do not want to have to think about with such a dismissal

Here is some more plain and simple and straight forward 'word games' for you.

Both communities fucked up in Cyprus. GC did not want to be part of a unitary independent Cypriot nation enough. TC did not want to be part of a unitary independent Cypriot nation enough. However to some degree the GC community is more to blame if only in the sense that in a hypothetical Cyprus where all the GC community wanted and sough was a unitary independent Cypriot nation and all the TC community sought was partition, partition would not have been achievable. It was ONLY achievable BECAUSE the GC community did NOT simply want a unitary independent Cypriot nation in and of itself but only as a means to a different end. By contrast in a hypothetical Cyprus where all the GC community wanted was union with Greece and all the TC community wanted was a independent unitary Cypriot nation, not much would have been different. Or to put it another way , we both chose the wrong thing, but if you had not chosen the wrong thing and we still had, then things would have been better where as if we had not chosen the wrong thing and you still had, then things would not be much different. Or another way you actually had the power to make a differences by your choices and we did not, so in that sense you can be said to be more to blame.

Today the future hope for Cyprus lies solely with those TC that understand and accept that 'taksim' was a bad and wrong choice AND with GC that understand and accept that 'enosis' was a bad choice. Whilst TC still believe that taksim was the right objective to pursue AND whilst GC still believe that enosis was the right objective to pursue, we are no closer to a solution than ever.

Here's the ultimate paradox - the Turkish Cypriots have achieved exactly what you complain the Greek Cypriots wanted, union (that will never be internationally recognised without ROC approval) with the motherland. Because of the island's proximity to Turkey you will be digested by the mainland and disappear as a unitary community much sooner than could have ever happened under a democratic Greek Cypriot State.

Yes the TC community as a community faces dangers from Turkey and we know that. But to claim that it is clear without any doubt that those dangers are greater than we would have faced as a community had enosis been achieved in 1960 really is to ignore all actual evidence in favour of what you just want to believe (and would like us to believe as well).

[Jerry]

You are playing with words and over-complicating YOUR interpretation of the Cyprus problem.

Well it is easy to write off and ignore anything you do not want to have to think about with such a dismissal

Here is some more plain and simple and straight forward 'word games' for you.

Both communities fucked up in Cyprus. GC did not want to be part of a unitary independent Cypriot nation enough. TC did not want to be part of a unitary independent Cypriot nation enough. However to some degree the GC community is more to blame if only in the sense that in a hypothetical Cyprus where all the GC community wanted and sough was a unitary independent Cypriot nation and all the TC community sought was partition, partition would not have been achievable. It was ONLY achievable BECAUSE the GC community did NOT simply want a unitary independent Cypriot nation in and of itself but only as a means to a different end. By contrast in a hypothetical Cyprus where all the GC community wanted was union with Greece and all the TC community wanted was a independent unitary Cypriot nation, not much would have been different. Or to put it another way , we both chose the wrong thing, but if you had not chosen the wrong thing and we still had, then things would have been better where as if we had not chosen the wrong thing and you still had, then things would not be much different. Or another way you actually had the power to make a differences by your choices and we did not, so in that sense you can be said to be more to blame.

Today the future hope for Cyprus lies solely with those TC that understand and accept that 'taksim' was a bad and wrong choice AND with GC that understand and accept that 'enosis' was a bad choice. Whilst TC still believe that taksim was the right objective to pursue AND whilst GC still believe that enosis was the right objective to pursue, we are no closer to a solution than ever.

Here's the ultimate paradox - the Turkish Cypriots have achieved exactly what you complain the Greek Cypriots wanted, union (that will never be internationally recognised without ROC approval) with the motherland. Because of the island's proximity to Turkey you will be digested by the mainland and disappear as a unitary community much sooner than could have ever happened under a democratic Greek Cypriot State.

Yes the TC community as a community faces dangers from Turkey and we know that. But to claim that it is clear without any doubt that those dangers are greater than we would have faced as a community had enosis been achieved in 1960 really is to ignore all actual evidence in favour of what you just want to believe (and would like us to believe as well).

You know very well that most GCs gave up on Enosis years ago. Even Makarios said it had brought trouble to the island, how about giving up on Taksim in reply - you can't can you? You are now "Turkish", you have got more than your fair share of Cyprus and you don't want to give it up.

"Both communities fucked up in Cyprus" your right there, but you can't bring yourself to admit that they "fucked up" in equal measure. Turkey used your presence on the island to fuck the Greek Cypriots and now its doing the same to you, you need to decide if you want to be Cypriots or Turks but it's probably too late.

[B25]

Jerry, the choice is no longer theirs. The assimilation has already happened. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[erolz66]

You know very well that most GCs gave up on Enosis years ago. Even Makarios said it had brought trouble to the island,

Its not about having given up on it today its about understanding and accepting today why it was such a mistaken then - and how many GC do that ?

how about giving up on Taksim in reply - you can't can you? You are now "Turkish", you have got more than your fair share of Cyprus and you don't want to give it up.

Do you mean me personally or the TC community ? Personally I would give up taksim but not if it simply means a return to the pre 74 status quo amongst a GC community that does not understand and accept why enosis and the way it was pursued then was a 'bad choice' then. I do not think the TC community is actually that different either but I might be wrong there. Personally I have never considered or called myself 'Turkish'. Cypriot - yes, TC - yes but just Turkish - no not ever.

"Both communities fucked up in Cyprus" your right there, but you can't bring yourself to admit that they "fucked up" in equal measure.

Actually I was very careful to say 'to some degree'. In many ways and at many levels I totally accept both communities were equally to blame. For example both communities equally allowed their respective extremists, absolutist and down right thuggish elements drive the agendas of those communities. I just also happen to believe that the GC had more ability to avert disaster by making the 'right choices' than the TC did and in that sense alone I say they therefore can be said to carry more blame but its a small thing really in that in actuality neither community made the 'right choices'.

Turkey used your presence on the island to fuck the Greek Cypriots and now its doing the same to you, you need to decide if you want to be Cypriots or Turks but it's probably too late.

And you could just as easily and accurately say Turkey used your attempt to try and impose enosis in Cyprus in the name of unitary Cypriot people that enosis also said did not exist to fuck all Cypriots. It is no more or less true than your statement, yet somehow I do not think you accept and understand this as you do the former.

Whatever you may think I actually personally believe in the concept and ideal of a unitary Cypriot people and nation. However such an ideal can not be achieved in isolation, of individuals or communities. Every time I am told 'TC had no right to resist enosis' or 'the Cyprus problem is simply a result of thieving TC trying to take more than they are due' or 'Good riddance to bad rubbish' or any number of other common themes from certain members of this forum, it just makes it harder for me to see and believe we can actually achieve this ideal in my lifetime. I understand and accept how the pursuit of taksim then was a 'bad choice' on the part of my community and therefore I am part of the hope for Cyprus in the future. Can you say likewise about enosis THEN and also be part of the hope for Cyprus in the future ? Or can you only define the issue in terms of Turkish presence in Cyprus and the need for it to be removed in order for there to be a solution ?

Extremism, absolutism, dogma and propaganda are what has got us where we are today and failed to find any settlement for well over 50 years now. Is it not time to try something else ?

[Jerry]

Is it not time to try something else ?

Regrettably it's too late in my opinion, the colonisation that the majority of TCs have embraced has, to a large extent, made the situation irreversable. It's a question now of how much you will give back in return for recognition by the ROC and consequently the international community.

[B25]

they can have 12% and build a large wall.

[erolz66]

Is it not time to try something else ?

Regrettably it's too late in my opinion, the colonisation that the majority of TCs have embraced has, to a large extent, made the situation irreversable. It's a question now of how much you will give back in return for recognition by the ROC and consequently the international community.

Do you think your leadership or even the wider GC community is ready to make such a deal ? On any % returned ?