Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oceanside50]

…don't be surprised if the Tc aren't saying everything that has been done to them. Denktash wanted the Tc enclaved and partitioned and certain elements of the GC wanted the same thing. These things have never been acknowledged by the ROC and as it claims to be a representative of all of citizens of Cyprus, it, the ROC, has failed miserably in acknowledging these injustices against the TC…..

[Oceanside50]

Here you go skouloui mou educate yourself…Tony Angastiniotis made this documentary. The government of Cyprus condemned his artistic expression much like the Taliban condemn apostates from Islam...

[Sotos]

When the Ottomans invaded our island we were Greek-Christian people and the invaders were Turkish-Muslim people. By definition you were "other people" from the beginning... and during the 400 years of Ottoman rule there were lots of discriminations against Greek-Christians... so don't tell me that it is our choices in the 50s that made you "other people" because that is the biggest lie ever. You are an ethnic minority and ethnic minorities don't have separate self-determination.

You still refuse to see the point that I am trying to make, which does not surprise me at all. You sought to claim enosis as the genuine expression of the majority will of a unitary Cypriot people, yet ENOSIS itself denied the very existence of exactly that unitary Cypriot people. This is the paradox and the 'unique' element of what happened in Cyprus. That you choose to refuse to see or acknowledge this clear paradox in even the smallest degree does not make it any less of one. You could of course have claimed enosis as an expression of the free will of that part of the unitary Greek people living in Cyprus and claimed that the 'others' should have no say as they were just prior invaders - but you knew that this would have had even less chance of gaining any international support for your aim of enosis than the 'paradox' route, which in the end also failed and delivered instead the 60's 'agreements'.

It probably is true that if Cyprus had been 80km of the coast of mainland Greece you probably would have got away with this paradox, but it is not and you did not. Nor if that is true does it mean it would have been any more right either.

I see the point you are trying to make and I am telling you it is FALSE. If it was true then the Greek minority in Turkey and every other ethnic minority in every other country would have a self determination right. And in many cases we are talking about minorities who are the native people in their countries not recent invaders like yourself... and they still don't get any separate self-determination right! If it was like that then every ethnic minority... which doesn't even have a separate territory of its own... would commit ethnic cleansing so they can take part of the country just for themselves and do what they wish in it.... NO ... you DO NOT have any such right PERIOD. And who told you that enosis would not have international support? It is just that the British colonizers, who are members of the UN security council, would not allow it to pass from the UN.

The point is that you should always be reminded that you occupy land that does not belong to you. Your rights are those of an ethnic minority. Taking more than that by force is a hostile act against the majority of the population which by definition makes you our enemy... no excuses from you are accepted.

You can keep insisting that our rights as a community are no more than those of an ethnic minority all you like but what undermines such a continued claim more than anything is actually how you treated us when we were a numerically smaller community sharing out homeland with you leading up to independence and even more so after it. Taking more by force, as happened in 74, was not right but then neither was trying to impose less by force right either, as happened from 60-74 and there is a relationship between the two - not a justification but a connection - which again you will simply seek to deny to the very core of your being.

Taking by force is what you are doing since you came to Cyprus.... not just in 74. 400 years of Ottoman rule you have been taking more by force. Then in the 1960 agreements you again took more by force. When did you accept to live in Cyprus as just a normal ethnic minority? NEVER. Had you not been trying to screw us and respected DEMOCRACY and MAJORITY RULE then we would also respect your MINORITY RIGHTS.

[Sotos]

When the Ottomans invaded our island we were Greek-Christian people and the invaders were Turkish-Muslim people. By definition you were "other people" from the beginning... and during the 400 years of Ottoman rule there were lots of discriminations against Greek-Christians... so don't tell me that it is our choices in the 50s that made you "other people" because that is the biggest lie ever. You are an ethnic minority and ethnic minorities don't have separate self-determination.

The point is that you should always be reminded that you occupy land that does not belong to you. Your rights are those of an ethnic minority. Taking more than that by force is a hostile act against the majority of the population which by definition makes you our enemy... no excuses from you are accepted.

Come off it Sotos, the Greeks must have arrived as invaders/settlers at some time. I think 400 years gives Cypriots of Turkish descent to consider themselves Cypriot, of course those that consider themselves as Turkish first (like Denktash) are a different matter.

Everybody everywhere arrived as settlers at some point. But time is critical here. The English went to Britain 1500 years ago... thats enough to make them natives there by now. But they can not be called natives in the places they colonized the last few centuries... unless those places were uninhabited or something.

[Oceanside50]

Hello,

i'm a journalist based in Cyprus and i'm interested in that topic. I've discussed it with a few "officials" but i'd really like to talk to people 'really' confronted to the problem i.e. having a property in the north that they want - or don't want - to sell. Do you know anyone in that situation ? Thanks in advance for any kind of help. C.

One idea might be to go to a coffee shop or two in the refugee estates to be found in the main cities in the government-controlled parts of the island - most of the people there will have left property behind in the north. You could do something similar by visiting coffee shops in villages where refugees have been settled in the north.

Tim, the TCs who have gone to the north are NOT "refugees". The RoC has not made them "refugees". It is the country they want to be represented by that they have followed, voluntarily.

As if they had a choice!
As far as they were concerned, they had 2 choices. Abandon their villages and homes and get behind the Turkish Lines, or possibly face Nicos Samaras and his gang of thugs and killing squads that went through Tohni and Sandalar, to round up all TC males onto buses to be taken to a killing field for execution after they dug out their mass grave.

They are refugees alright. There are about 45,000 TC refugees according to the UN.

There was suffering on their side as well!

The TCs wanted partition since the 1950s. What happened is what they WANTED to happen all along... and it is what they continue to want. Otherwise the solution would be easy. We get our properties back in the north and they get theirs back in the south. THEY don't accept this.

I don't know if you guys are trying to distort history or just can't decipher the history of your own country. The Tc did not voluntarily leave and go to the occupied areas they were obligated to leave in 1975 by the ROC, after the Denktash/Clerides agreement or Vienna agreements(same thing)…Its been 40 fucking years since the invasion and occupation and all I hear is rhetoric and propaganda from both sides thats been passed down from your daddies and granddaddies. Unless you start thinking for yourselves there will never be anything resembling a solution.

[erolz66]

I see the point you are trying to make and I am telling you it is FALSE. If it was true then the Greek minority in Turkey and every other ethnic minority in every other country would have a self determination right. And in many cases we are talking about minorities who are the native people in their countries not recent invaders like yourself... and they still don't get any separate self-determination right! If it was like that then every ethnic minority... which doesn't even have a separate territory of its own... would commit ethnic cleansing so they can take part of the country just for themselves and do what they wish in it.... NO ... you DO NOT have any such right PERIOD. And who told you that enosis would not have international support? It is just that the British colonizers, who are members of the UN security council, would not allow it to pass from the UN.

No you still do not get it, which is as expected. You can say it is false that there is an inherent paradox in claiming ENOSIS as an expression of the free will of a unitary Cypriot people, when ENOSIS itself denies the very existence of that unitary people, but saying it does not make the paradox disappear. It is there and it is real despite your denials. You in fact, as an individual here, are more 'honest' - in that you make it clear that in your view the TC community should have had (and have) no rights to any say over Cyprus' future because they are just invaders'. Your leadership knew that such an honest argument that TC should simply have no say over their own futures in Cyprus because they were just invaders, would never be accepted, not by the leaving Colonial rulers, the wider world community or Turkey. So they instead tried the 'paradox' approach, which also failed in the end at great cost. It is ENOSIS, claimed as an expression of the right to self determination of a unitary Cypriot people, that makes Cyprus different from other places with ethnic monitories in them post colonisation. It is ENOSIS that in effected promoted the TC community into something more than just an ethnic minority.

Had you not been trying to screw us and respected DEMOCRACY and MAJORITY RULE then we would also respect your MINORITY RIGHTS.

You have to know that is not true. You only have to look at how ethnic minorities, especially those of Turkish origin have been treated in Greece between 1960 and today, to know that is not true. You only have to look at your own posts, where you repeatedly argue that TC are not 'true' Cypriots, but just left over invaders and colonisers to know that is not true.

Everybody everywhere arrived as settlers at some point. But time is critical here. The English went to Britain 1500 years ago... thats enough to make them natives there by now. But they can not be called natives in the places they colonized the last few centuries... unless those places were uninhabited or something.

Are you serious ? When did Europeans settle in North America ? In Australia ? In South America ? In Africa ?

[Oceanside50]

Here you go skouloui mou educate yourself…Tony Angastiniotis made this documentary. The government of Cyprus condemned his artistic expression much like the Taliban condemn apostates from Islam...

Point of censorship by the ROC…how come noone in Cyprus came to the defense of this man and his movie if rights are what your arguments are about?…Did the government of the ROC threaten to ban it or did they?

[Paphitis]

When the Ottomans invaded our island we were Greek-Christian people and the invaders were Turkish-Muslim people. By definition you were "other people" from the beginning... and during the 400 years of Ottoman rule there were lots of discriminations against Greek-Christians... so don't tell me that it is our choices in the 50s that made you "other people" because that is the biggest lie ever. You are an ethnic minority and ethnic minorities don't have separate self-determination.

The point is that you should always be reminded that you occupy land that does not belong to you. Your rights are those of an ethnic minority. Taking more than that by force is a hostile act against the majority of the population which by definition makes you our enemy... no excuses from you are accepted.

Come off it Sotos, the Greeks must have arrived as invaders/settlers at some time. I think 400 years gives Cypriots of Turkish descent to consider themselves Cypriot, of course those that consider themselves as Turkish first (like Denktash) are a different matter.

Everybody everywhere arrived as settlers at some point. But time is critical here. The English went to Britain 1500 years ago... thats enough to make them natives there by now. But they can not be called natives in the places they colonized the last few centuries... unless those places were uninhabited or something.

Fine! The TCs arrived in 1571 and some have been here for thousands of years and are converts!

That makes them natives and as natives they have every right to oppose ENOSIS.

You on the other hand do not have a right to declare ENOSIS and if you think you do, then the TCs have a right to self determination/partition.

You better pull your head in mate!

[GreekIslandGirl]

... You can say it is false that there is an inherent paradox in claiming ENOSIS as an expression of the free will of a unitary Cypriot people, when ENOSIS itself denies the very existence of that unitary people,

There's no paradox because the TC "community" never integrated, never wanted to become "a unitary" people. They were offered repatriation to Turkey (Article 21) by the British after all Turkish claims to Cyprus were relinquished. Those who stayed knew Cyprus was a Greek island under the rule of the British. They had NO claims to Cyprus as a "Turkish" anything.

[erolz66]

There's no paradox because the TC "community" never integrated, never wanted to become "a unitary" people. They were offered repatriation to Turkey (Article 21) by the British after all Turkish claims to Cyprus were relinquished. Those who stayed knew Cyprus was a Greek island under the rule of the British. They had NO claims to Cyprus as a "Turkish" anything.

It has nothing to do with if the TC community integrated or not or thought of themselves as a unitary Cypriot people or not. Regardless of any of that, the GC claim that ENOSIS represented the genuine will of a unitary Cypriot people, whilst enosis also says there is no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people remains a paradox. It is a paradox in and of itself regardless of anything the TC community may or may not have done. You knew if you claimed enosis as a legitimate expression of the right to self determination of that section of the unitary Greek people that lived in Cyprus, then this would automatically grant TC an equal right to self determination as some other people. So you tried instead the 'paradoxical trick' and that did not work out for you either. That you remain unable after all this time to see these simple realties just shows how deep the issues at the core of the Cyprus problem still run today.