Cyprus-Forum.com

[Maximus]

Correction,

The solution to todays problem, or at least a big part of it is for (b) or (c)

[Sotos]

Enosis was our right. At most you could say that enosis was inconsiderate to your feelings. Was not considering the feelings of a minority a mistake? Maybe... but it was not a crime....

It was your right to want and pursue enosis, but NOT in the name of a unitary Cypriot people. That is the whole point. The reason why you tried to claim it as a genuine expression of a unitary Cypriot people, when so clearly it was not, because it said there was no Cypriot people and because it was ONLY GC that desired it, was exactly to try and deny the TC of THEIR rights within their own shared homeland. The right to self determination does NOT give you a right to deny self determination to those you have already defined as not of the same people as you. To think it does is the grosses perversion of the right in the first place.

It is simply fucking obvious, with the benefit of 50+years passage of time, that the pursuit of enosis rather than independence with not regard for the TC communities wishes and desires was a major fuck up that played a major role in getting us to the mess we are in today and inherently 'promoted' the status of TC to more than just a minority within Cyprus. That you can continue to insist that something so fucking obvious is not the case just shows how deep the problem runs.

And lets not forget that Turks never give a fuck for the feelings and desires of any minority... so you preaching us about this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. But your reaction to enosis was not just inconsiderate... it was a CRIME because you attacked innocent Greek Cypriot people and you advocated, planned... and later executed ethnic cleansing and mass murder.

Racial slurs and the old 'you did this that and the other' whilst ignoring the fact that you did no different. GC did not attack innocent TC ? Same old same old denials.

You oppressed us for 300 years and more recently committed more mass murders and ethnic cleansing because you wanted everything your way ALWAYS and you couldn't stand it that for ONCE the native majority could take a decision. After IMPOSING what you wanted for centuries and now for another 4 decades without giving a fuck about the majority of Cypriots you now want us to feel it was a mistake because once we wanted as a majority to do something you didn't agree with? Go fuck yourself!

Yeah the mess we are in today is all because TC are 'bad people' and GC are not. That is your argument and belief and you wonder why we are in the mess we are today ?

We NEVER claimed that enosis was adopted by every single ethnic group or individual who inhabited Cyprus. Enosis was in the name of the vast MAJORITY of the people and that was more than enough. Somehow you think that it was OK for foreign invaders to take decisions for Cyprus, that it is OK for your small minority to take decisions for Cyprus... and the only thing you do not accept is what is the OBVIOUS... that the Cypriot people can take decisions for Cyprus by MAJORITY, which is the BEST way to take decisions save for complete unanimity which is almost always impossible. You AVOIDED answering my questions about what YOU do when you are the majority. Your double standards are telling. When you are the majority you exercice Majority Rule to the 200%... but when you are the minority you are trying to find all sorts of stupid excuses to excuse why majority rule can not apply. No ... I don't believe that any people are inheritably bad. But I believe that people can become bad when they are encouraged and rewarded for acting in a bad way. And this is what happened with TCs. Turkey is encouraging you and rewarding you for being complete assholes and it is working. It is not just once that high ranking Turkish officials said that Turkey wouldn't let Cyprus free even if there was not a single Turkish person in Cyprus.

[Jerry]

We NEVER claimed that enosis was adopted by every single ethnic group or individual who inhabited Cyprus. Enosis was in the name of the vast MAJORITY of the people and that was more than enough. Somehow you think that it was OK for foreign invaders to take decisions for Cyprus, that it is OK for your small minority to take decisions for Cyprus... and the only thing you do not accept is what is the OBVIOUS... that the Cypriot people can take decisions for Cyprus by MAJORITY, which is the BEST way to take decisions save for complete unanimity which is almost always impossible. You AVOIDED answering my questions about what YOU do when you are the majority. Your double standards are telling. When you are the majority you exercice Majority Rule to the 200%... but when you are the minority you are trying to find all sorts of stupid excuses to excuse why majority rule can not apply. No ... I don't believe that any people are inheritably bad. But I believe that people can become bad when they are encouraged and rewarded for acting in a bad way. And this is what happened with TCs. Turkey is encouraging you and rewarding you for being complete assholes and it is working. It is not just once that high ranking Turkish officials said that Turkey wouldn't let Cyprus free even if there was not a single Turkish person in Cyprus.

I don't agree with everthing you say, Sotos, but you are quite right with regard to Tukey. Regardless of what the Cypriots wanted, Turkey wanted Cyprus returned against the will of 80% of the population, how's that for neo-colonialism. Ultimately it was Turkey who connived to regain the island and it was quite prepared, with the help of Denktash and others, to sacrifice Turkish Cypriots to that end. I'm afraid the GC extremists (and later on the Junta) played right into their hands, in 1960 the UK handed the Greek Cypriots a poisonous "reward", a cynic would say revenge for the Eoka campaign.

We are at an impasse at present but as I see it Turkey will always want to keep part of Cyprus under its control and that will be at the expense of the Cypriots it "saved". Sooner or later Turkey will have to accept the fact that its colony in Cyprus will never be recognised unless it returns a significant part of it to the ROC.

[erolz66]

We NEVER claimed that enosis was adopted by every single ethnic group or individual who inhabited Cyprus. Enosis was in the name of the vast MAJORITY of the people and that was more than enough.

Read the documents that define the right to self determination of peoples. To say that 'peoples' means all those in a given geographical area, because that happens top suit your purpose and maximal wants without the need to compromise, is the grossest perversion of the spirit and the letter of these declarations. To be a 'people' as used in the declarations of the right to self determination there HAS to be some commonality. Given that we were already of different ethnic / cultural backgrounds, religion and language the ONLY chance for such commonality that is an absolute necessity to define a 'peoples' under the declarations of the right to self determination would have been the commonality of all being Cypriot, in an inclusive Cypriot nation and sate. That is WHY enosis and not independence was such a fuck up and why it made the TC more than just a minority. There was ONE thing that could have created the commonality necessary for us to be a single 'people' as per the declarations on the rights of peoples - and you chose to fuck that up by choosing enosis AND to then try and still claim we were a 'single people' in order to force it on us against our will. It is what I have been saying all along and what you have been denying all along.

[Sotos]

We NEVER claimed that enosis was adopted by every single ethnic group or individual who inhabited Cyprus. Enosis was in the name of the vast MAJORITY of the people and that was more than enough.

Read the documents that define the right to self determination of peoples. To say that 'peoples' means all those in a given geographical area, because that happens top suit your purpose and maximal wants without the need to compromise, is the grossest perversion of the spirit and the letter of these declarations. To be a 'people' as used in the declarations of the right to self determination there HAS to be some commonality. Given that we were already of different ethnic / cultural backgrounds, religion and language the ONLY chance for such commonality that is an absolute necessity to define a 'peoples' under the declarations of the right to self determination would have been the commonality of all being Cypriot, in an inclusive Cypriot nation and sate. That is WHY enosis and not independence was such a fuck up and why it made the TC more than just a minority. There was ONE thing that could have created the commonality necessary for us to be a single 'people' as per the declarations on the rights of peoples - and you chose to fuck that up by choosing enosis AND to then try and still claim we were a 'single people' in order to force it on us against our will. It is what I have been saying all along and what you have been denying all along.

We forced nothing on you against your will. You forced yourselves on us against our will for more than 3 centuries and with our self-determination we would gain the freedom that YOU and later the British took away from us. The whole point of the self-determination principle is to free native people like us from colonialists like you. Self-determination is not a principle about minorities like yours having more say over the majority of native population. If minorities established by the colonialists on the occupied territories would have equal say as the majority of the native population then the whole self-determination principle would be self-defeating.

[Sotos]

[erolz66]

The whole point of the self-determination principle is to free native people like us from colonialists like you.

So we are back to 'you had no right to any say over your own future in your own shared homeland because you were colonial rulers'. Round and round we go. One minute we have no right because we are a minority within a unitary Cypriot people, that you said did not exist. When that is shown as a BS manipulation of the right of self determination of peoples in order for you to try (unsuccessfully) to gain your maximal wants with no regard for TC and no need for compromise you resort back to 'you have no rights because you are colonisers'. This is you 'argument' and as I have said all along, given this is what you chose to believe even after 50+ years of the disaster such a mind-set has contributed too, is it any wonder we are no closer to building a better future, having learnt from our mistakes of the past ?

[Sotos]

The whole point of the self-determination principle is to free native people like us from colonialists like you.

So we are back to 'you had no right to any say over your own future in your own shared homeland because you were colonial rulers'. Round and round we go. One minute we have no right because we are a minority within a unitary Cypriot people, that you said did not exist. When that is shown as a BS manipulation of the right of self determination of peoples in order for you to try (unsuccessfully) to gain your maximal wants with no regard for TC and no need for compromise you resort back to 'you have no rights because you are colonisers'. This is you 'argument' and as I have said all along, given this is what you chose to believe even after 50+ years of the disaster such a mind-set has contributed too, is it any wonder we are no closer to building a better future, having learnt from our mistakes of the past ?

I have been very clear. I never said "you have no rights". What I said is "you have no right to impose your will on the majority". And you are a minority as a result of a relatively recent colonization... that is what I said and that is what you really are. The disaster of Cyprus is the Turkish expansionism. Our struggle to free our island from the invaders is what is right. Yes... the invaders will always try to punish those who fight for freedom to "give them a lesson". Try to punish us all you can, we will NEVER learn the lesson of how to be obedient slaves. We will always fight for the freedom of our island. Now fuck off.

[erolz66]

I have been very clear. I never said "you have no rights". What I said is "you have no right to impose your will on the majority".

We either express our rights as part of a unitary Cypriot people - which you fucked up with enosis or as part of some other peoples - in which case we have an equal and separate right to self determination.

We will always fight for the freedom of our island. Now fuck off.

Yeah its your island and we should just fuck off. That was your ideal back then and look where it has got us all. Dickhead. No wonder TC seek partition in the face of such views.

[Sotos]

I have been very clear. I never said "you have no rights". What I said is "you have no right to impose your will on the majority".

We either express our rights as part of a unitary Cypriot people - which you fucked up with enosis or as part of some other peoples - in which case we have an equal and separate right to self determination.

In Cyprus Turks are the minority and have no right for self-determination. You have this right in Turkey where you are the majority. Continue to believe otherwise... but no matter what you believe the pseudo state will remain a pseudo state because that land belongs mostly to us and so it couldn't be part of a Turkish self-determination.

We will always fight for the freedom of our island. Now fuck off.

Yeah its your island and we should just fuck off. That was your ideal back then and look where it has got us all. Dickhead. No wonder TC seek partition in the face of such views.

If you can't respect the native people who are also the majority then yes you should fuck off. My ideal would be if the Turks had never invaded Cyprus in the first place. Second ideal would be for you to finally accept that you can't impose your will on the majority and accept democracy so we can live in peace with you like we do with the other minorities in Cyprus. Since we were unlucky to be invaded by Turks and since you don't show any desire to ever respect MAJORITY RULE which is a requirement of democracy then yes you should fuck off.