Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Constantinople didn't fall to the Turks until 1453... how fast the Turks committed genocides and forced the Greeks to become a minority is not important. What is important is that the Turks forced the Greeks to become a minority. But nobody forced the Turks to become a minority in Cyprus. They are a minority here due to their own actions. So how on earth can the Turkish minority in Cyprus be entitled to any more rights than the Greek minority in Turkey?

You still just do not get it do you Sotos. You refuse to see how, for the TC community and how they could express their rights to self determination, GC pursuing ENOSIS was different from them pursuing independence. You refuse to see it yet you KNOW that if there had been a TC majority in Cyprus when British rule was coming to and end, you would easily see the difference between those TC pursuing union with Turkey or pursuing independence. Believe that TC have not right self determination at all if you like. Believe that the GC choosing enosis (that excluded TC) rather than independence (that included) played no part in how the TC could exercise their right to self determination if you like. Believe whatever you like. It does not change the truth one iota. It does undermine our chances of building a better future having learnt from our past mistakes, but that's your choice.

You already told us your stupid excuse and it just doesn't stand. There is no real difference between the Greek minority in Smyrna or Constantinople finding themselves in a country called Turkey without their agreement and what would happen to your minority in the case of enosis. If there is any difference that is that the Greeks of Constantinople and Smyrna were native people and have been reduced to minorities by force by the Turks... so if anything they should have more rights than your minority not less. Your ethnic minority is like every other ethnic minority and no stupid excuse will change this. The only "mistake" is that you keep invading our island and keep bringing your settlers here... but that is no mistake ... it is a fully intentional Turkish expansionism against Cyprus.

[erolz66]

You already told us your stupid excuse and it just doesn't stand. There is no real difference between the Greek minority in Smyrna or Constantinople finding themselves in a country called Turkey without their agreement and what would happen to your minority in the case of enosis. If there is any difference that is that the Greeks of Constantinople and Smyrna were native people and have been reduced to minorities by force by the Turks... so if anything they should have more rights than your minority not less. Your ethnic minority is like every other ethnic minority and no stupid excuse will change this. The only "mistake" is that you keep invading our island and keep bringing your settlers here... but that is no mistake ... it is a fully intentional Turkish expansionism against Cyprus.

Blah blah blah. Turkey, Turkey, Turkey. There is a reason why you will not answer the question Sotos, and keep referring instead to Turkey which became a nation at a totally different time, in a totally different way (not emerging from colonial rule and not seeking union with some other state but creating a new one) and refuse to deal with the situation in Cyprus. Just say it Sotos. Say that if in 1960 TC had been a majority , it would have made no difference to the GC community, and how they could legitimately exercise their right to self determination in their own shared homeland, if the TC majority had sought union with Turkey, or independence for all Cypriots. Come on say it. Of course you will not, because you know the true test is would you apply the same to GC community that which you apply to the TC and you know you do not and would not and you know you can not say this openly. Yet your refusal to answer the question says it anyway, loud and clear. Your refusal to accept how the pursuit of enosis rather than independence by made things different in Cyprus conjures up in me the image of a small child sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'naaaaahhhnaaaahhhnaaaahh' to stop hearing something they do not want to hear.

[Maximus]

You already told us your stupid excuse and it just doesn't stand. There is no real difference between the Greek minority in Smyrna or Constantinople finding themselves in a country called Turkey without their agreement and what would happen to your minority in the case of enosis. If there is any difference that is that the Greeks of Constantinople and Smyrna were native people and have been reduced to minorities by force by the Turks... so if anything they should have more rights than your minority not less. Your ethnic minority is like every other ethnic minority and no stupid excuse will change this. The only "mistake" is that you keep invading our island and keep bringing your settlers here... but that is no mistake ... it is a fully intentional Turkish expansionism against Cyprus.

Blah blah blah. Turkey, Turkey, Turkey. There is a reason why you will not answer the question Sotos, and keep referring instead to Turkey which became a nation at a totally different time, in a totally different way (not emerging from colonial rule and not seeking union with some other state but creating a new one) and refuse to deal with the situation in Cyprus. Just say it Sotos. Say that if in 1960 TC had been a majority , it would have made no difference to the GC community, and how they could legitimately exercise their right to self determination in their own shared homeland, if the TC majority had sought union with Turkey, or independence for all Cypriots. Come on say it. Of course you will not, because you know the true test is would you apply the same to GC community that which you apply to the TC and you know you do not and would not and you know you can not say this openly. Yet your refusal to answer the question says it anyway, loud and clear. Your refusal to accept how the pursuit of enosis rather than independence by made things different in Cyprus conjures up in me the image of a small child sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'naaaaahhhnaaaahhhnaaaahh' to stop hearing something they do not want to hear.

Erolz

Would you have given the GC community political equality, (a veto) and pay them (lets say they comprised 18% of the population) a 30% share of the Republics GDP?

[erolz66]

Erolz

Would you have given the GC community political equality, (a veto) and paid them (lets say they comprised 18% of the population) a 30% share of the Republics GDP?

I am saying that if today I was GC (or if you prefer if today things were reversed) I would accept that ENOSIS, that excluded TC and made them by definition some other peoples to GC, rather than independence which included TC and made us all elements of a Cypriot people, was a fuck up and played a major role in the mess we are in today. That I would see and accept that through the lens of 50+ years of distance and understand that seeing it and understanding it today is a vital perquisite for us moving forward together as Cypriots to a better future. I am not asking Sotos to accept that back then it should have been understood what a fuck up enosis was and how big a part it would play in the disasters that befell all Cypriots post 1960. I am simple asking that he accepts it TODAY, or at least acknowledges the point. Instead all we get is denial. He still follows the same line and ideology of back then, ignores the mistakes of his community and blames all on mine and wonders why we are still no closer to a solution ?

[Maximus]

Erolz

Would you have given the GC community political equality, (a veto) and paid them (lets say they comprised 18% of the population) a 30% share of the Republics GDP?

I am saying that if today I was GC (or if you prefer if today things were reversed) I would accept that ENOSIS, that excluded TC and made them by definition some other peoples to GC, rather than independence which included TC and made us all elements of a Cypriot people, was a fuck up and played a major role in the mess we are in today. That I would see and accept that through the lens of 50+ years of distance and understand that seeing it and understanding it today is a vital perquisite for us moving forward together as Cypriots to a better future. I am not asking Sotos to accept that back then it should have been understood what a fuck up enosis was and how big a part it would play in the disasters that befell all Cypriots post 1960. I am simple asking that he accepts it TODAY, or at least acknowledges the point. Instead all we get is denial. He still follows the same line and ideology of back then, ignores the mistakes of his community and blames all on mine and wonders why we are still no closer to a solution ?

You are not answering my question, or rather, your own question and it is a very simple one.

[Maximus]

No one should answer you now Erolz, until you answer my (your own question).

Yet your refusal to answer the question says it anyway, loud and clear.

[Sotos]

You already told us your stupid excuse and it just doesn't stand. There is no real difference between the Greek minority in Smyrna or Constantinople finding themselves in a country called Turkey without their agreement and what would happen to your minority in the case of enosis. If there is any difference that is that the Greeks of Constantinople and Smyrna were native people and have been reduced to minorities by force by the Turks... so if anything they should have more rights than your minority not less. Your ethnic minority is like every other ethnic minority and no stupid excuse will change this. The only "mistake" is that you keep invading our island and keep bringing your settlers here... but that is no mistake ... it is a fully intentional Turkish expansionism against Cyprus.

Blah blah blah. Turkey, Turkey, Turkey. There is a reason why you will not answer the question Sotos, and keep referring instead to Turkey which became a nation at a totally different time, in a totally different way (not emerging from colonial rule and not seeking union with some other state but creating a new one) and refuse to deal with the situation in Cyprus. Just say it Sotos. Say that if in 1960 TC had been a majority , it would have made no difference to the GC community, and how they could legitimately exercise their right to self determination in their own shared homeland, if the TC majority had sought union with Turkey, or independence for all Cypriots. Come on say it. Of course you will not, because you know the true test is would you apply the same to GC community that which you apply to the TC and you know you do not and would not and you know you can not say this openly. Yet your refusal to answer the question says it anyway, loud and clear. Your refusal to accept how the pursuit of enosis rather than independence by made things different in Cyprus conjures up in me the image of a small child sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'naaaaahhhnaaaahhhnaaaahh' to stop hearing something they do not want to hear.

But I did hear your crap many times... you are acting like a child who thought they found the perfect excuse... and they keep insisting on it even when the adults don't accept it. To answer your question... Yes, in case we were a minority I would PREFER if Cyprus was independent rather than part of Turkey. I would also PREFER if my 18% minority was given 30% share of everything and a veto power... the more powers and share the better ... But we would not have the RIGHT to any of those things and I know with 100% certainty that if the Turks were the majority in Cyprus they wouldn't accept to give to us anything like that... we would be lucky if we got our basic human rights and not ethnically cleansed or killed in a genocide. How do I know? Because there is a Greek minority in Turkey and it doesn't get any of that. And also there are Greek Cypriots who live in your pseudo state... so we know very well that the rights YOU give to minorities are less than what we give to ours and nothing like what you demand when you are the minority. If you want your excuses to have any credibility then do as you preach whenever YOU are the majority.

[Sotos]

Erolz

Would you have given the GC community political equality, (a veto) and paid them (lets say they comprised 18% of the population) a 30% share of the Republics GDP?

I am saying that if today I was GC (or if you prefer if today things were reversed) I would accept that ENOSIS, that excluded TC and made them by definition some other peoples to GC, rather than independence which included TC and made us all elements of a Cypriot people, was a fuck up and played a major role in the mess we are in today. That I would see and accept that through the lens of 50+ years of distance and understand that seeing it and understanding it today is a vital perquisite for us moving forward together as Cypriots to a better future. I am not asking Sotos to accept that back then it should have been understood what a fuck up enosis was and how big a part it would play in the disasters that befell all Cypriots post 1960. I am simple asking that he accepts it TODAY, or at least acknowledges the point. Instead all we get is denial. He still follows the same line and ideology of back then, ignores the mistakes of his community and blames all on mine and wonders why we are still no closer to a solution ?

Enosis was our right. At most you could say that enosis was inconsiderate to your feelings. Was not considering the feelings of a minority a mistake? Maybe... but it was not a crime. And lets not forget that Turks never give a fuck for the feelings and desires of any minority... so you preaching us about this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. But your reaction to enosis was not just inconsiderate... it was a CRIME because you attacked innocent Greek Cypriot people and you advocated, planned... and later executed ethnic cleansing and mass murder. You oppressed us for 300 years and more recently committed more mass murders and ethnic cleansing because you wanted everything your way ALWAYS and you couldn't stand it that for ONCE the native majority could take a decision. After IMPOSING what you wanted for centuries and now for another 4 decades without giving a fuck about the majority of Cypriots you now want us to feel it was a mistake because once we wanted as a majority to do something you didn't agree with? Go fuck yourself!

[erolz66]

Enosis was our right. At most you could say that enosis was inconsiderate to your feelings. Was not considering the feelings of a minority a mistake? Maybe... but it was not a crime....

It was your right to want and pursue enosis, but NOT in the name of a unitary Cypriot people. That is the whole point. The reason why you tried to claim it as a genuine expression of a unitary Cypriot people, when so clearly it was not, because it said there was no Cypriot people and because it was ONLY GC that desired it, was exactly to try and deny the TC of THEIR rights within their own shared homeland. The right to self determination does NOT give you a right to deny self determination to those you have already defined as not of the same people as you. To think it does is the grosses perversion of the right in the first place.

It is simply fucking obvious, with the benefit of 50+years passage of time, that the pursuit of enosis rather than independence with not regard for the TC communities wishes and desires was a major fuck up that played a major role in getting us to the mess we are in today and inherently 'promoted' the status of TC to more than just a minority within Cyprus. That you can continue to insist that something so fucking obvious is not the case just shows how deep the problem runs.

And lets not forget that Turks never give a fuck for the feelings and desires of any minority... so you preaching us about this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. But your reaction to enosis was not just inconsiderate... it was a CRIME because you attacked innocent Greek Cypriot people and you advocated, planned... and later executed ethnic cleansing and mass murder.

Racial slurs and the old 'you did this that and the other' whilst ignoring the fact that you did no different. GC did not attack innocent TC ? Same old same old denials.

You oppressed us for 300 years and more recently committed more mass murders and ethnic cleansing because you wanted everything your way ALWAYS and you couldn't stand it that for ONCE the native majority could take a decision. After IMPOSING what you wanted for centuries and now for another 4 decades without giving a fuck about the majority of Cypriots you now want us to feel it was a mistake because once we wanted as a majority to do something you didn't agree with? Go fuck yourself!

Yeah the mess we are in today is all because TC are 'bad people' and GC are not. That is your argument and belief and you wonder why we are in the mess we are today ?

[Maximus]

Erolz,

You have lost your way buddy. You cant claim to be Cypriot and part of the Cypriot nation yet say the Tcs are separate and demand separate rights and a right to self determination.

The Tc's are not a separate and sovereign people and they do not have a right to self determination. They are either an ethnic minority in Cyprus with a Cypriot nationality and Cypriot citizenship or part of a sovereign majority in Turkey as Turkish citizens.

What your community should have done was;

a) Stand aside and not obstruct ENOSIS in the 50's.
b) Sell up and go to Turkey if they could not stomach living as an ethnic minority within a democracy in Cyprus.
c) Forfeit those disproportional rights that a third country said they could have (at the Gc's expense) by accepting the 13 amendments Makarios put forward.

If this happened, Cyprus would not be in the state it is in today.

The solution to todays problem, or at least a big part of the solution is also in (a) or (b).