EIther there is a separate country or there isn't-
You either have to shit or get off the pot.
SCRAP THE ANNAN PLAN
by Agios Amvrosios » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:53 am
- Agios Amvrosios
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by Piratis » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:18 pm
Vassos, what is exactly the benefit of your proposal over two totally separate countries both members of EU?
As I said before, if the Turkey was proposing to keep the 18% and return the rest, then this might have been acceptable (even if it is not fair) based on the current balance of power.
As I said before, if the Turkey was proposing to keep the 18% and return the rest, then this might have been acceptable (even if it is not fair) based on the current balance of power.
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by Piratis » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:58 pm
Not me. I said it might have been acceptable if Turkey kept 18% because with the balance of power today we will not be able to get anything that is fair. No solution today can be fair for Greek Cypriots. If we want a fair solution then we will have to wait for several years, maybe some decades. I am not saying we shouldn't wait. I am just saying that 18% - 82% partition is probably the least bad unfair solution that could be achieved today. So we have to decide if we want a solution now or if we are willing to wait.
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by Vassos1 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:53 pm
Piratis and all,
Pirates, you hit the nail right on the head. We, as Greek Cypriots who are the representatives of the Republic of Cyprus with Turkey in the north occupying 37% of Cyprus and referring to themselves as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), are faced with a serious problem. The evidence showing that they, the Turkish Cypriots, are gaining support, sympathy, economic and political assistance which is now spiraling out of OUR control.
My proposal, which I would like to now step aside from, was just an idea rather than having to deal with what might possibly happen in the future. If we wait any longer for a solution and I say this in harmony with the concerns stressed by many of our country’s political advisors, we will be faced with a case of the right to self-determination by the Turkish Cypriots. The indicators towards this end are as follows:
1) The TRNC’s former leader has been replaced with a person who is internationally regarded as a person who fully supports a pro-solution policy.
2) The OIC, Turkic states are preparing on, although not fully recognizing the state, the immediate removal of the economic and political isolation.
3) The UN, US and UK are being forced to remove their isolation on Northern Cyprus based on the issues of humanitarian denial, a leader who is desperately knocking on the Greek Cypriot government door for a compromise and the fact that the EU is unable to explain its requirement for issues concerning fair trade, human rights when continuing to ignore the Turkish Cypriot people’s humanitarian issues.
4) Let’s understand that President Papadopoulos is now viewed as a leader who has openly suggested that he is not for a solution at present, thus allowing the Turkish Cypriots the justification they politically need in order to force the lifting of the economic/trade embargoes.
5) Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Tallat has already agreed to every recommendation by the US, UK, EU and UN so far, thus allowing the legal impetus for countries like Azerbaijan to build direct relations with the Turkish Cypriots.
6) We have allowed the Northern Turkish state to flourish because of our ignorance in the past in seeking a solution. The Turkish Cypriots are now demanding that they possess all of what is required for a fully functional state, well done President Papadopoulos for allowing Tallat to make us look incompetent and look like we do not want a solution.
7)
These particular forces, such as those who need, and intensely want Turkey in the EU are aspiring to use Turkey for its economic and political capabilities. Turkey’s influence over the Turkic states, its relations with China; which consist of at least 11 million people of Turkish origin, its relations with Pakistan the UAE, the OIC and Arab world and its huge oil contracts, are just some of the reason why we need to agree to a solution we can fathom today. With the economic issues facing the EU at present, its lack of future economic projects and natural resources, Turkey will be a very important member of the EU if it decides to accept its invitation once its economy reaches a certain level.
At present, we can see very clear indicators and progression in the Turkish economy, which has already secured some very lucrative contracts that Greece and the EU could never attain; due to its relations and geographical location.
As for our position in Cyprus, I just hope that our leaders
We must secure an agreement as soon as possible, whether we all want a federation, confederation, and unification or division otherwise we will be confronted with an “Automatically” accepted agreement.
Also, whether some of us are aware or not, the property boom in Northern Cyprus is not what we entirely understand it to be. As we all know, there is a huge Turkish Cypriot community abroad who would no doubt accumulate to the legal representation of the population of the Republic of Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriot administration has cleverly build many properties in the view of attracting, not only people from the UK and etc, but primarily in attracting its former citizens back to Cyprus. At this moment if all of the properties are occupied by the “Turkish Cypriots abroad” (the ones who left the Republic of Cyprus from 1963-1974) they would double the present population in the north.
Therefore, according to the calculations of many of our property developers and economic advisors, the Turkish Cypriot population in any NEW UNIFICATION agreement will be at least
On a final note, upon a recent question asked to one of our Ministers in the Cyprus Parliament regarding the situation explained above, we received the following response,
It may very well be just that, but, what is our government doing about this property issue, and to what extend would this issue actually prove that an agreement of division is the only way of solving it. In other words, we may actually shoot ourselves in the foot if we demand too many answers.
.So we have to decide if we want a solution now or if we are willing to wait
Pirates, you hit the nail right on the head. We, as Greek Cypriots who are the representatives of the Republic of Cyprus with Turkey in the north occupying 37% of Cyprus and referring to themselves as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), are faced with a serious problem. The evidence showing that they, the Turkish Cypriots, are gaining support, sympathy, economic and political assistance which is now spiraling out of OUR control.
My proposal, which I would like to now step aside from, was just an idea rather than having to deal with what might possibly happen in the future. If we wait any longer for a solution and I say this in harmony with the concerns stressed by many of our country’s political advisors, we will be faced with a case of the right to self-determination by the Turkish Cypriots. The indicators towards this end are as follows:
1) The TRNC’s former leader has been replaced with a person who is internationally regarded as a person who fully supports a pro-solution policy.
2) The OIC, Turkic states are preparing on, although not fully recognizing the state, the immediate removal of the economic and political isolation.
3) The UN, US and UK are being forced to remove their isolation on Northern Cyprus based on the issues of humanitarian denial, a leader who is desperately knocking on the Greek Cypriot government door for a compromise and the fact that the EU is unable to explain its requirement for issues concerning fair trade, human rights when continuing to ignore the Turkish Cypriot people’s humanitarian issues.
4) Let’s understand that President Papadopoulos is now viewed as a leader who has openly suggested that he is not for a solution at present, thus allowing the Turkish Cypriots the justification they politically need in order to force the lifting of the economic/trade embargoes.
5) Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Tallat has already agreed to every recommendation by the US, UK, EU and UN so far, thus allowing the legal impetus for countries like Azerbaijan to build direct relations with the Turkish Cypriots.
6) We have allowed the Northern Turkish state to flourish because of our ignorance in the past in seeking a solution. The Turkish Cypriots are now demanding that they possess all of what is required for a fully functional state, well done President Papadopoulos for allowing Tallat to make us look incompetent and look like we do not want a solution.
7)
In a legal sense, there is nothing from preventing Britain, US or the UN, if they so wish, from recognising neither the Greek-Cypriot nor the Turkish-Cypriot administration as the government (s) of Cyprus and adopting an entirely neutral position, which is what is currently being pushed by certain very influential forces.
These particular forces, such as those who need, and intensely want Turkey in the EU are aspiring to use Turkey for its economic and political capabilities. Turkey’s influence over the Turkic states, its relations with China; which consist of at least 11 million people of Turkish origin, its relations with Pakistan the UAE, the OIC and Arab world and its huge oil contracts, are just some of the reason why we need to agree to a solution we can fathom today. With the economic issues facing the EU at present, its lack of future economic projects and natural resources, Turkey will be a very important member of the EU if it decides to accept its invitation once its economy reaches a certain level.
At present, we can see very clear indicators and progression in the Turkish economy, which has already secured some very lucrative contracts that Greece and the EU could never attain; due to its relations and geographical location.
As for our position in Cyprus, I just hope that our leaders
as we will suddenly realise that even the legal representation of the Cyprus issue may be questioned.do not base their future policies on the Turkey of the 1970s and 80s
We must secure an agreement as soon as possible, whether we all want a federation, confederation, and unification or division otherwise we will be confronted with an “Automatically” accepted agreement.
Also, whether some of us are aware or not, the property boom in Northern Cyprus is not what we entirely understand it to be. As we all know, there is a huge Turkish Cypriot community abroad who would no doubt accumulate to the legal representation of the population of the Republic of Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriot administration has cleverly build many properties in the view of attracting, not only people from the UK and etc, but primarily in attracting its former citizens back to Cyprus. At this moment if all of the properties are occupied by the “Turkish Cypriots abroad” (the ones who left the Republic of Cyprus from 1963-1974) they would double the present population in the north.
Therefore, according to the calculations of many of our property developers and economic advisors, the Turkish Cypriot population in any NEW UNIFICATION agreement will be at least
. This would mean that the Turkish Cypriots, under a new calculated population in a unification agreement, will be around the 40% mark of a United Republic of Cyprus and not the old 18% that we anticipate.400’000 plus Turkish Cypriot citizens
On a final note, upon a recent question asked to one of our Ministers in the Cyprus Parliament regarding the situation explained above, we received the following response,
“It would need to be checked and proved that these people are the ones who left the Republic, or are the descendents of those people. This project would also apply to our citizens abroad as well”.
It may very well be just that, but, what is our government doing about this property issue, and to what extend would this issue actually prove that an agreement of division is the only way of solving it. In other words, we may actually shoot ourselves in the foot if we demand too many answers.
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Vassos1 - New Member
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- Location: London
by Vassos1 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:54 pm
Piratis and all,
Pirates, you hit the nail right on the head. We, as Greek Cypriots who are the representatives of the Republic of Cyprus with Turkey in the north occupying 37% of Cyprus and referring to themselves as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), are faced with a serious problem. The evidence showing that they, the Turkish Cypriots, are gaining support, sympathy, economic and political assistance which is now spiraling out of OUR control.
My proposal, which I would like to now step aside from, was just an idea rather than having to deal with what might possibly happen in the future. If we wait any longer for a solution and I say this in harmony with the concerns stressed by many of our country’s political advisors, we will be faced with a case of the right to self-determination by the Turkish Cypriots. The indicators towards this end are as follows:
1) The TRNC’s former leader has been replaced with a person who is internationally regarded as a person who fully supports a pro-solution policy.
2) The OIC, Turkic states are preparing on, although not fully recognizing the state, the immediate removal of the economic and political isolation.
3) The UN, US and UK are being forced to remove their isolation on Northern Cyprus based on the issues of humanitarian denial, a leader who is desperately knocking on the Greek Cypriot government door for a compromise and the fact that the EU is unable to explain its requirement for issues concerning fair trade, human rights when continuing to ignore the Turkish Cypriot people’s humanitarian issues.
4) Let’s understand that President Papadopoulos is now viewed as a leader who has openly suggested that he is not for a solution at present, thus allowing the Turkish Cypriots the justification they politically need in order to force the lifting of the economic/trade embargoes.
5) Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Tallat has already agreed to every recommendation by the US, UK, EU and UN so far, thus allowing the legal impetus for countries like Azerbaijan to build direct relations with the Turkish Cypriots.
6) We have allowed the Northern Turkish state to flourish because of our ignorance in the past in seeking a solution. The Turkish Cypriots are now demanding that they possess all of what is required for a fully functional state, well done President Papadopoulos for allowing Tallat to make us look incompetent and look like we do not want a solution.
7)
These particular forces, such as those who need, and intensely want Turkey in the EU are aspiring to use Turkey for its economic and political capabilities. Turkey’s influence over the Turkic states, its relations with China; which consist of at least 11 million people of Turkish origin, its relations with Pakistan the UAE, the OIC and Arab world and its huge oil contracts, are just some of the reason why we need to agree to a solution we can fathom today. With the economic issues facing the EU at present, its lack of future economic projects and natural resources, Turkey will be a very important member of the EU if it decides to accept its invitation once its economy reaches a certain level.
At present, we can see very clear indicators and progression in the Turkish economy, which has already secured some very lucrative contracts that Greece and the EU could never attain; due to its relations and geographical location.
As for our position in Cyprus, I just hope that our leaders
We must secure an agreement as soon as possible, whether we all want a federation, confederation, and unification or division otherwise we will be confronted with an “Automatically” accepted agreement.
Also, whether some of us are aware or not, the property boom in Northern Cyprus is not what we entirely understand it to be. As we all know, there is a huge Turkish Cypriot community abroad who would no doubt accumulate to the legal representation of the population of the Republic of Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriot administration has cleverly build many properties in the view of attracting, not only people from the UK and etc, but primarily in attracting its former citizens back to Cyprus. At this moment if all of the properties are occupied by the “Turkish Cypriots abroad” (the ones who left the Republic of Cyprus from 1963-1974) they would double the present population in the north.
Therefore, according to the calculations of many of our property developers and economic advisors, the Turkish Cypriot population in any NEW UNIFICATION agreement will be at least
On a final note, upon a recent question asked to one of our Ministers in the Cyprus Parliament regarding the situation explained above, we received the following response,
It may very well be just that, but, what is our government doing about this property issue, and to what extend would this issue actually prove that an agreement of division is the only way of solving it. In other words, we may actually shoot ourselves in the foot if we demand too many answers.
.So we have to decide if we want a solution now or if we are willing to wait
Pirates, you hit the nail right on the head. We, as Greek Cypriots who are the representatives of the Republic of Cyprus with Turkey in the north occupying 37% of Cyprus and referring to themselves as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), are faced with a serious problem. The evidence showing that they, the Turkish Cypriots, are gaining support, sympathy, economic and political assistance which is now spiraling out of OUR control.
My proposal, which I would like to now step aside from, was just an idea rather than having to deal with what might possibly happen in the future. If we wait any longer for a solution and I say this in harmony with the concerns stressed by many of our country’s political advisors, we will be faced with a case of the right to self-determination by the Turkish Cypriots. The indicators towards this end are as follows:
1) The TRNC’s former leader has been replaced with a person who is internationally regarded as a person who fully supports a pro-solution policy.
2) The OIC, Turkic states are preparing on, although not fully recognizing the state, the immediate removal of the economic and political isolation.
3) The UN, US and UK are being forced to remove their isolation on Northern Cyprus based on the issues of humanitarian denial, a leader who is desperately knocking on the Greek Cypriot government door for a compromise and the fact that the EU is unable to explain its requirement for issues concerning fair trade, human rights when continuing to ignore the Turkish Cypriot people’s humanitarian issues.
4) Let’s understand that President Papadopoulos is now viewed as a leader who has openly suggested that he is not for a solution at present, thus allowing the Turkish Cypriots the justification they politically need in order to force the lifting of the economic/trade embargoes.
5) Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Tallat has already agreed to every recommendation by the US, UK, EU and UN so far, thus allowing the legal impetus for countries like Azerbaijan to build direct relations with the Turkish Cypriots.
6) We have allowed the Northern Turkish state to flourish because of our ignorance in the past in seeking a solution. The Turkish Cypriots are now demanding that they possess all of what is required for a fully functional state, well done President Papadopoulos for allowing Tallat to make us look incompetent and look like we do not want a solution.
7)
In a legal sense, there is nothing from preventing Britain, US or the UN, if they so wish, from recognising neither the Greek-Cypriot nor the Turkish-Cypriot administration as the government (s) of Cyprus and adopting an entirely neutral position, which is what is currently being pushed by certain very influential forces.
These particular forces, such as those who need, and intensely want Turkey in the EU are aspiring to use Turkey for its economic and political capabilities. Turkey’s influence over the Turkic states, its relations with China; which consist of at least 11 million people of Turkish origin, its relations with Pakistan the UAE, the OIC and Arab world and its huge oil contracts, are just some of the reason why we need to agree to a solution we can fathom today. With the economic issues facing the EU at present, its lack of future economic projects and natural resources, Turkey will be a very important member of the EU if it decides to accept its invitation once its economy reaches a certain level.
At present, we can see very clear indicators and progression in the Turkish economy, which has already secured some very lucrative contracts that Greece and the EU could never attain; due to its relations and geographical location.
As for our position in Cyprus, I just hope that our leaders
as we will suddenly realise that even the legal representation of the Cyprus issue may be questioned.do not base their future policies on the Turkey of the 1970s and 80s
We must secure an agreement as soon as possible, whether we all want a federation, confederation, and unification or division otherwise we will be confronted with an “Automatically” accepted agreement.
Also, whether some of us are aware or not, the property boom in Northern Cyprus is not what we entirely understand it to be. As we all know, there is a huge Turkish Cypriot community abroad who would no doubt accumulate to the legal representation of the population of the Republic of Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriot administration has cleverly build many properties in the view of attracting, not only people from the UK and etc, but primarily in attracting its former citizens back to Cyprus. At this moment if all of the properties are occupied by the “Turkish Cypriots abroad” (the ones who left the Republic of Cyprus from 1963-1974) they would double the present population in the north.
Therefore, according to the calculations of many of our property developers and economic advisors, the Turkish Cypriot population in any NEW UNIFICATION agreement will be at least
. This would mean that the Turkish Cypriots, under a new calculated population in a unification agreement, will be around the 40% mark of a United Republic of Cyprus and not the old 18% that we anticipate.400’000 plus Turkish Cypriot citizens
On a final note, upon a recent question asked to one of our Ministers in the Cyprus Parliament regarding the situation explained above, we received the following response,
“It would need to be checked and proved that these people are the ones who left the Republic, or are the descendents of those people. This project would also apply to our citizens abroad as well”.
It may very well be just that, but, what is our government doing about this property issue, and to what extend would this issue actually prove that an agreement of division is the only way of solving it. In other words, we may actually shoot ourselves in the foot if we demand too many answers.
-
Vassos1 - New Member
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:50 pm
- Location: London
by cypezokyli » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:18 am
vasso1
i was absent for a while so i ll try to give you a general answer to everything that u wrote. it seems that this thread is one of the few in the last days that didnt explode into nationalistic comments.anyway...
first, you proposed partition. i thought about that for a while to be honest. especially in the time of the referendum. the reason is that i believe that if one wants to make critisism on sth he has to have sth to propose. anyway i dont believe that anymore. the major reason is that, i came to realise that many of the political and realistic arguments i used - were based on stereotypes about the turks and the tcs.
firstly, the whole historic view that u take (we take) : we were here before you, and you came as a conqueror in 1571. i dont have to accept the continuation of history ,that you, take as granted.i dont see the reason that, the fact that the greeks were here before the ottoman turks or that the turks conquered the greeks, should affect the way i see the future.
besides this idea of preserving helenism. i would support you if by hellenism you mean plato aristotel aristophanes etc(not sampson and grivas like another hellenist of this forum). but these figures are in any case not greek property but rather world heritage. and believe me, the first ones that dont read them are the greeks and moreover the greek-patriots. so saving our children of becoming turkified sounds to me so absurd since our children are already americanised.
when it comes to partition. would u at first stage agree that the island would be better of by having one state rather than two?
so the question turns on how we achieve a pieceful cooperation between the gc and the tcs. by saying we tried this once and it didnt work, and as a concequense we shouldnt try again in the future, is not convincing.
dont forget the differences between know and the 1960s. the RoC, as it is often said it was a republic with no citizens. we want ENOSIS they TAKSIM. there was noone to support the poor republic. how could it ever survive? now hopefully this has changed. at least when it comes to our side, the dream of enosis is history. in any case in 1963 it was not people hating each other, that started the bicommunal clashes. people are lead. and at the time our leadership and our chirch as well as their leadership were having so diverse aims aims and didnot care if they would suffer casualties in order to achieve their aims.
now, with a changed education and wise leadership these things can be avoided.
u know there is an article in the national geographic for cyprus dating in 1973. it is amazing how the opinions of the people didnot change. tcs are good people we have no problem with them, but when it comes to politics they want everything equal. the gcs are good people but they want everything for themsalves. since 1973!!!
Lead by gerontokrats who in turn lead the people how could this island ever have a chance?
.....
one-state-one-vote is unfair. i agree
is exactly as unfair a one-person-one-vote can prove in minority situations. it is sth we accepted / forced on us(which makes me always wonder why are we so proud of kicking the english out when they were making the rules), but could have worked if we and they really wanted , and if i have to accept it once again in order to unify the island i will.
.....
your second proposal i didnt really get how it fits to your first partition ideas.
even though i agree with you, that our position after the referendum (with pap as a leader) is worsening. it is that i disagree on which way we should take. the division or the union. but as you , i am afraid that if we dont do sth fast we will not have the option in the future.
i was absent for a while so i ll try to give you a general answer to everything that u wrote. it seems that this thread is one of the few in the last days that didnt explode into nationalistic comments.anyway...
first, you proposed partition. i thought about that for a while to be honest. especially in the time of the referendum. the reason is that i believe that if one wants to make critisism on sth he has to have sth to propose. anyway i dont believe that anymore. the major reason is that, i came to realise that many of the political and realistic arguments i used - were based on stereotypes about the turks and the tcs.
firstly, the whole historic view that u take (we take) : we were here before you, and you came as a conqueror in 1571. i dont have to accept the continuation of history ,that you, take as granted.i dont see the reason that, the fact that the greeks were here before the ottoman turks or that the turks conquered the greeks, should affect the way i see the future.
besides this idea of preserving helenism. i would support you if by hellenism you mean plato aristotel aristophanes etc(not sampson and grivas like another hellenist of this forum). but these figures are in any case not greek property but rather world heritage. and believe me, the first ones that dont read them are the greeks and moreover the greek-patriots. so saving our children of becoming turkified sounds to me so absurd since our children are already americanised.
when it comes to partition. would u at first stage agree that the island would be better of by having one state rather than two?
so the question turns on how we achieve a pieceful cooperation between the gc and the tcs. by saying we tried this once and it didnt work, and as a concequense we shouldnt try again in the future, is not convincing.
dont forget the differences between know and the 1960s. the RoC, as it is often said it was a republic with no citizens. we want ENOSIS they TAKSIM. there was noone to support the poor republic. how could it ever survive? now hopefully this has changed. at least when it comes to our side, the dream of enosis is history. in any case in 1963 it was not people hating each other, that started the bicommunal clashes. people are lead. and at the time our leadership and our chirch as well as their leadership were having so diverse aims aims and didnot care if they would suffer casualties in order to achieve their aims.
now, with a changed education and wise leadership these things can be avoided.
u know there is an article in the national geographic for cyprus dating in 1973. it is amazing how the opinions of the people didnot change. tcs are good people we have no problem with them, but when it comes to politics they want everything equal. the gcs are good people but they want everything for themsalves. since 1973!!!
Lead by gerontokrats who in turn lead the people how could this island ever have a chance?
.....
one-state-one-vote is unfair. i agree
is exactly as unfair a one-person-one-vote can prove in minority situations. it is sth we accepted / forced on us(which makes me always wonder why are we so proud of kicking the english out when they were making the rules), but could have worked if we and they really wanted , and if i have to accept it once again in order to unify the island i will.
.....
your second proposal i didnt really get how it fits to your first partition ideas.
even though i agree with you, that our position after the referendum (with pap as a leader) is worsening. it is that i disagree on which way we should take. the division or the union. but as you , i am afraid that if we dont do sth fast we will not have the option in the future.
- cypezokyli
- Regular Contributor
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