Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Your not really answering the question before you, there is absolutely no trust between the two sides, just quoting "universal rights" will not cut it, no one is prepared to take that leap of faith because you quote a lot of slogans which in reality allow the GCs to shit all over the TCs. Concrete details are necessary to ease the lack of trust otherwise it will be more of the same division.

Then let me answer your question directly which I really did not want to just so not to make you look silly and your statements baseless about the GCs being able to shit all over the TCs in a USA style True Federation/True Democracy.

Lets substitute the majority larger GC population in the south state as California of almost 40 million people and lets substitute the minority TC population in the north state as Nevada of almost 3 million people. Two states right next to each other under a Federal Government and all citizens as Cypriots just as they are Americans in the US. So, tell me how California is able to shit all over Nevada in your distortion of the truth that the south state with the majority GCs will be able to shit all over the north state over the minority TCs? California and its people run their own affairs 99% of the time just as Nevada does. Federal Government's direct involvements in those states are very minimal to say the least, since Federal laws apply to ALL the states equally. So you see VP, you throw around accusations that are baseless. That makes you inherently a dishonest person.

The truth coming from you would be more like, "we don't want any GCs in the north state and we are also going to keep their stolen properties for ourselves because that how we can become more land owners than before and we want to be agents for Turkey to help them keep occupying Cyprus with their military and Illegal Alien settlers".

In a unitary state, I can see some of your point as perhaps being warranted, but since Cyprus has never had a True Democracy in the 60's at the formation of the RoC as a unitary state, we can never say for sure if what happened in '63 would have still happened, although Erolz will disagree with me, but then again, Erolz like to live in the world of recreating history, history based conjecture rather than facts, specially when it comes to Cyprus, otherwise he cannot make any arguments to support his claim, and you are not too far from what Erolz does. So we can see the pattern of distorted claims purely based on conjecture and not based on facts.

I have stated before and I will say it again, that if the TCs wanted to live in a peaceful Cyprus, BBF based on True Federation, True Democracy, International law and the EU Principles is the very best their community can hope for, for them to benefit from, to live in security and prosperity, specially in the RoC as a EU member state, just like how California and Nevada benefits by being in the Union of the States, despite California as a sovereign country would have the world's 7th largest economy. Anything else other than the above in what the partitionists want, it's not the best for the TCs/GCs or Cyprus but what might be best for the enemies of Cyprus, including Greece, Turkey and the UK. We can't let that happen no matter how much you want to distort the truth and facts.

[kurupetos]

for you the price is 4 times reh vromoshillo, you have the table manners of a of a macedonian.

What?

[Viewpoint]

Your not really answering the question before you, there is absolutely no trust between the two sides, just quoting "universal rights" will not cut it, no one is prepared to take that leap of faith because you quote a lot of slogans which in reality allow the GCs to shit all over the TCs. Concrete details are necessary to ease the lack of trust otherwise it will be more of the same division.

Then let me answer your question directly which I really did not want to just so not to make you look silly and your statements baseless about the GCs being able to shit all over the TCs in a USA style True Federation/True Democracy.

Lets substitute the majority larger GC population in the south state as California of almost 40 million people and lets substitute the minority TC population in the north state as Nevada of almost 3 million people. Two states right next to each other under a Federal Government and all citizens as Cypriots just as they are Americans in the US. So, tell me how California is able to shit all over Nevada in your distortion of the truth that the south state with the majority GCs will be able to shit all over the north state over the minority TCs? California and its people run their own affairs 99% of the time just as Nevada does. Federal Government's direct involvements in those states are very minimal to say the least, since Federal laws apply to ALL the states equally. So you see VP, you throw around accusations that are baseless. That makes you inherently a dishonest person.

The truth coming from you would be more like, "we don't want any GCs in the north state and we are also going to keep their stolen properties for ourselves because that how we can become more land owners than before and we want to be agents for Turkey to help them keep occupying Cyprus with their military and Illegal Alien settlers".

In a unitary state, I can see some of your point as perhaps being warranted, but since Cyprus has never had a True Democracy in the 60's at the formation of the RoC as a unitary state, we can never say for sure if what happened in '63 would have still happened, although Erolz will disagree with me, but then again, Erolz like to live in the world of recreating history, history based conjecture rather than facts, specially when it comes to Cyprus, otherwise he cannot make any arguments to support his claim, and you are not too far from what Erolz does. So we can see the pattern of distorted claims purely based on conjecture and not based on facts.

I have stated before and I will say it again, that if the TCs wanted to live in a peaceful Cyprus, BBF based on True Federation, True Democracy, International law and the EU Principles is the very best their community can hope for, for them to benefit from, to live in security and prosperity, specially in the RoC as a EU member state, just like how California and Nevada benefits by being in the Union of the States, despite California as a sovereign country would have the world's 7th largest economy. Anything else other than the above in what the partitionists want, it's not the best for the TCs/GCs or Cyprus but what might be best for the enemies of Cyprus, including Greece, Turkey and the UK. We can't let that happen no matter how much you want to distort the truth and facts.

Your yet again trying to cloud the issue here by not relating directly to Cyprus by choosing a federation which has matured and developed, we do not trust one another one iota and have not developed like the USA, its like comparing apples with pears both fruit but very different. Lets blow your argument out of the water by asking you to clarify exactly the balance of senators in the US Senate? of the states you have given us in your example, and what is necessary to pass a bill? please try and be truthful and not use a load of words to disort and diviate from the facts.

[Kikapu]

Your yet again trying to cloud the issue here by not relating directly to Cyprus by choosing a federation which has matured and developed, we do not trust one another one iota and have not developed like the USA, its like comparing apples with pears both fruit but very different. Lets blow your argument out of the water by asking you to clarify exactly the balance of senators in the US Senate? of the states you have given us in your example, and what is necessary to pass a bill? please try and be truthful and not use a load of words to disort and diviate from the facts.

That's the whole beauty of the USA type Federation. Each state does not need to like each other or even have trust in each other, because they are independent from each other. All they need to do is just abide by the Federal Laws, which is made up by ALL Americans. US Constitution & Federal Laws Rule over any State Constitution & State Laws. Very simple.

Your question is not clear enough I'm afraid. Are you referring to passing Federal Laws with US senators (upper house) (and also members of congress -lower house) from each state or passing state laws with state senators and Assembly members, because you are asking me about the states I gave in my examples that you want to know what is necessary to pass a bill? Please be very specific in your question before I give you lengthy answers. I don't want to waste my time and yours by answering something if it's not what you are really asking.

[Nikitas]

Keeping the GCs out is the easy part, keeping the TCs in is going to be a bitch. even now 12000 TCs cross south daily to work. Post solution is going to be lots more, not to mention business domicile added to worker migration. It is going to be funny to see the system functioning and dysfunctioning.

[Viewpoint]

Your yet again trying to cloud the issue here by not relating directly to Cyprus by choosing a federation which has matured and developed, we do not trust one another one iota and have not developed like the USA, its like comparing apples with pears both fruit but very different. Lets blow your argument out of the water by asking you to clarify exactly the balance of senators in the US Senate? of the states you have given us in your example, and what is necessary to pass a bill? please try and be truthful and not use a load of words to disort and diviate from the facts.

That's the whole beauty of the USA type Federation. Each state does not need to like each other or even have trust in each other, because they are independent from each other. All they need to do is just abide by the Federal Laws, which is made up by ALL Americans. US Constitution & Federal Laws Rule over any State Constitution & State Laws. Very simple.

Your question is not clear enough I'm afraid. Are you referring to passing Federal Laws with US senators (upper house) (and also members of congress -lower house) from each state or passing state laws with state senators and Assembly members, because you are asking me about the states I gave in my examples that you want to know what is necessary to pass a bill? Please be very specific in your question before I give you lengthy answers. I don't want to waste my time and yours by answering something if it's not what you are really asking.

The question was clear enough but lets make it more simple for you, in order to pass a law that will abolish gambling in the two states you gave in your comparison to Cyprus, how many votes will each state have to pass or block this bill?

[Nikitas]

In the USA it is simple, a federal statute passes through the House, the Senate and gets the presidential seal.

In our BBF plans it would need separate majorities in each region and in the senate. What is the big deal?

The more interesting question is whether a member of one region would be committing a local offence if he gambled in the other region. Most probable example, a GC gambling in the TC region. If gambling is forbidden in the GC region but permitted in the TC region would his gambling in the TC region be an offence? Since we envision a personal connection to political rights, and not a territorial one, the same might hold true for criminal jurisdiction as well. Get ready for a royal FUp if things go this way and the whole Bizonal bit is ranked below the Bicommunal bit and each region tries to extend its control over its citizens. It is going to get funny fast.

[Viewpoint]

In the USA it is simple, a federal statute passes through the House, the Senate and gets the presidential seal.

In our BBF plans it would need separate majorities in each region and in the senate. What is the big deal?

The more interesting question is whether a member of one region would be committing a local offence if he gambled in the other region. Most probable example, a GC gambling in the TC region. If gambling is forbidden in the GC region but permitted in the TC region would his gambling in the TC region be an offence? Since we envision a personal connection to political rights, and not a territorial one, the same might hold true for criminal jurisdiction as well. Get ready for a royal FUp if things go this way and the whole Bizonal bit is ranked below the Bicommunal bit and each region tries to extend its control over its citizens. It is going to get funny fast.

How many seats/votes does each state have in the US Senate to pass a bill? before presidential ratification?

[Kikapu]

Your yet again trying to cloud the issue here by not relating directly to Cyprus by choosing a federation which has matured and developed, we do not trust one another one iota and have not developed like the USA, its like comparing apples with pears both fruit but very different. Lets blow your argument out of the water by asking you to clarify exactly the balance of senators in the US Senate? of the states you have given us in your example, and what is necessary to pass a bill? please try and be truthful and not use a load of words to disort and diviate from the facts.

That's the whole beauty of the USA type Federation. Each state does not need to like each other or even have trust in each other, because they are independent from each other. All they need to do is just abide by the Federal Laws, which is made up by ALL Americans. US Constitution & Federal Laws Rule over any State Constitution & State Laws. Very simple.

Your question is not clear enough I'm afraid. Are you referring to passing Federal Laws with US senators (upper house) (and also members of congress -lower house) from each state or passing state laws with state senators and Assembly members, because you are asking me about the states I gave in my examples that you want to know what is necessary to pass a bill? Please be very specific in your question before I give you lengthy answers. I don't want to waste my time and yours by answering something if it's not what you are really asking.

The question was clear enough but lets make it more simple for you, in order to pass a law that will abolish gambling in the two states you gave in your comparison to Cyprus, how many votes will each state have to pass or block this bill?

You are not making any sense at all with your question.

The two states do not vote together to abolish gambling in one of the 2 states I mentioned. It is the individual state itself votes to abolish gambling or not, and by a majority vote in the legislator or in a referendum. The Governor can veto a majority vote only in the legislator of course, therefore, it will require more than just the majority vote, more like 60%-40% to avoid a veto by the Governor. In a referendum, majority vote stands and cannot be vetoed by the Governor, but the proposal voted on can and will be challenged in the courts for it’s legal standings. For example, If the majority votes to bring back slavery, the courts will strike it down as being illegal, since slavery is illegal in the Federal Laws/Constitution. Call it “Checks & Balances” if you like!

If I got your question right, which I doubt, then what is your point?

[Kikapu]

In the USA it is simple, a federal statute passes through the House, the Senate and gets the presidential seal.

In our BBF plans it would need separate majorities in each region and in the senate. What is the big deal?

The more interesting question is whether a member of one region would be committing a local offence if he gambled in the other region. Most probable example, a GC gambling in the TC region. If gambling is forbidden in the GC region but permitted in the TC region would his gambling in the TC region be an offence? Since we envision a personal connection to political rights, and not a territorial one, the same might hold true for criminal jurisdiction as well. Get ready for a royal FUp if things go this way and the whole Bizonal bit is ranked below the Bicommunal bit and each region tries to extend its control over its citizens. It is going to get funny fast.

How many seats/votes does each state have in the US Senate to pass a bill? before presidential ratification?

TWO!