Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

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[Anglo]

Anglo,
Are you claiming that for Turkey to concede to a logical, just and viable solution, that will also respect Cypriot people’s human rights, it equates to a mere selling of the TCs down the river? Is this what you just said?

Logical, just and viable in whose eyes? The TCs want a bizonal federation with safeguards for their perceived rights. The GCs want one-man-one vote and a 100% GC return to the north. Two different versions of just and viable

Two things and I am finished with this story, as I sense that I am talking with a mere opportunist.

1. This is not what the GC side is essentially trying for.
2. The mere political settlement of a political dispute, namely the type of government, regime and the degree power sharing and representation of the two communities and /or states in it, have absolutely nothing to do with the respect of the individual's property and other fundamental human rights.

Of course you and many other TCs and /or Turkey want a solution that will also step over those human rights, because you want to legitimize the theft of individual's properties, covering them under the veil of a political settlement. As a typical thieve, you would naturally want to be free to continue to act so and hope that you will also get away with it. My mission, as one of the many victims of yours and other's theft, is to do whatever is feasibly possible to stop you and also not to allow you to ever legitimize your theft, because this will only come about on my own very expense.

Opportunist? I don't follow you - unless you are making an assumption that I am involved in property in the north?

You are getting carried away with your 'thief' language again. The deprivation of property cuts both ways - TCs are victims too (how come you keep forgetting?). They have had their normal rightful existence stolen from them too. In the last few years many of them have had the opportunity to make some modest financial gains from the meagre assets in their hands. Yes, they weren't their lands originally but without any other way of accessing their dispossessed assets what would you do in their situation? Do you begrudge them what your society takes for granted? What would you do if you had lived on the breadline for 31 years? And the foreigners buying these lands? They are making a contribution to the north which is the lifeline of the economy. I do not believe that these foreigners, who have only appeared in the last couple of years, have made any difference to the essence of this problem

Also, I do not understand your argument that the property issue is entirely separate from the overall solution - seems totally intertwined in my opinion.

I'm not belittling your loss but when you look at the bigger picture and the length of time/water under the bridge you should psychologically 'move on' as TCs seemed to have done. E.g. the TC who owns Larnaca Airport's land doesn't spend every waking moment imagining that he will get his land back.

[Nikiforos]

The GCs want one-man-one vote and a 100% GC return to the north.

One man one vote is essential for a true democracy. The Turks, Anglos, and Americans fail at simple arithmetic. By their warped logic, 1 TC=4 votes. THE RIGHT OF RETURN OF ALL REFUGEES IS A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

I'm not belittling your loss but when you look at the bigger picture and the length of time/water under the bridge you should psychologically 'move on' as TCs seemed to have done.

It is very easy for you to be cavalier about the murder of loved ones and the theft of ancestral homes.

[Kifeas]

Opportunist? I don't follow you - unless you are making an assumption that I am involved in property in the north?

Anglo, if you are not involved in property in the north, then I apologise for my comment. I keep the shared assumption that those foreigners involved with GC properties in the north can indeed be regarded as opportunists.

You are getting carried away with your 'thief' language again. The deprivation of property cuts both ways - TCs are victims too (how come you keep forgetting?). They have had their normal rightful existence stolen from them too. In the last few years many of them have had the opportunity to make some modest financial gains from the meagre assets in their hands. Yes, they weren't their lands originally but without any other way of accessing their dispossessed assets what would you do in their situation? Do you begrudge them what your society takes for granted? What would you do if you had lived on the breadline for 31 years? And the foreigners buying these lands? They are making a contribution to the north which is the lifeline of the economy. I do not believe that these foreigners, who have only appeared in the last couple of years, have made any difference to the essence of this problem

Also, I do not understand your argument that the property issue is entirely separate from the overall solution - seems totally intertwined in my opinion.

I'm not belittling your loss but when you look at the bigger picture and the length of time/water under the bridge you should psychologically 'move on' as TCs seemed to have done. E.g. the TC who owns Larnaca Airport's land doesn't spend every waking moment imagining that he will get his land back.

Unfortunately, the issue of GC properties is far more complicated than you seem to think of it. I will try to offer my own approach and assessment and hopefully you will also understand were I come from on this matter. First of all you need to have in mind the discrepancy in terms of area and real estate value between properties left by TCs in the south and GCs in the north. This discrepancy is overwhelmingly unfavourable for the GCs, since the amount of GC properties in the north is about 4 times more in terms of area and about 8-10 times more in terms of real estate value, than the corresponding TC properties in the south. That by itself makes it impossible for every single GC that left their property in the north to be able to gain in possession an equivalent TC property in the south and as a result, very few GCs have been able to balance out. I happen to be one of the many (majority) of GCs who did not get anything in “exchange” of the more than 2 million pounds worth of property that my family owns in the north. Even those few GCs that got some, cannot make any use of these properties anywhere near to the type of use that the TCs make of the GC properties in the north, due to national and international laws that protect the rights of the owners. Perhaps the only exception to this has been the government, which has the right to expropriate them for public benefit projects.

I am not a naïve or an illogical person to expect and retain that the TCs should have not made any use of GC properties. They also have the need and the right to survive, to build their own public benefit institutions and to further expand the infrastructure in the north. Although technically, the TC authorities in the north to not constitute a legitimate government to have the right to expropriate properties belonging to individuals, I and no other GC that I know have ever uttered a single word for the use of GC land towards the construction of such projects. I personally go further and say that any TC that left considerable property in the south and consequently was give an equivalent in value GC property in the north, and due to his need to make a living for him and his family, decided to build a factory or a hotel in such a GC property, in my eyes his is morally legitimised to have done so. There is always a certain maximum number of such enterprises to ever be built in a given area or region, and consequently this by itself will not endanger the exchange balance between GC and TC properties, nor it will endanger the solution itself. Furthermore, a business (i.e. a hotel or a factory,) has the sustainable potential to generate in the future the money that might be needed to compensate the original GC owner of the land, should an equivalent value of land is not to be found in the south.

I will also go further and say that I am ready to accept and accommodate any (or all) such uses of GC properties by TCs (mainly those who left from the south) for their family and children housing needs. I can understand the need of a TC to use the GC plot that was given to him, hopefully assuming an equivalent plot in the south, in order to build a house for his newly married son or daughter. I would have been a hypocrite not to be able to accept such cases, while at the same time I cry for the GC opportunity loses due to the 31 years of our property deprivation. All such cases cannot threaten or endanger the value exchange-balance, because they are limited up (there is ceiling) to the number (population) of the TCs that left from the south or even to the total TC population.

However, what will definately endanger the exchange balance, (it has already violated it,) and consequently the prospects of any agreed solution, set aside a just and a viable one, is the massive and senseless “purchasing” and indiscriminate cementing of GC properties by those developers. Although all these properties are of the highest value, as they are located in the most expensive and attractive areas of the north, all such “purchases” by those “developers” are “concluded” on very nominal prices due to the fact that in most cases those that initially “sold” them, got possession of them without having an equivalent property value in the south –or none at all. Those “developers” subsequently develop these properties for the mere selling of houses to foreigners, again on very nominal prices. Such a practice will endanger (it has already) the exchange balance, as it has no upper limit (the market is unlimited,) it is not a sustainable form of investment but a one shot deal, the little profit to be made doesn’t benefit the TC community as a whole but only the few developers and the cheap labour that is imported from Turkey for the construction –since the entire TC labour of this sector is employed in the south, and last but not least, it is done without proper evaluation of who and how got these properties in the first place and whether there is an equivalent exchange value in the south –since only the by far most expensive (prime) land of kyrenia, famagusta and perhaps Karpasia is used even though the TC properties that were left in the south were evenly distributed along the entire spectrum of property types (sea side, mountain, agricultural, dry-rocky, residential, etc.)

If, on top of the GC properties that have been used for public benefit infrastructure (roads, schools, hospitals, etc,) plus the GC properties that have been used (or will needed to be used) for the housing needs of the TCs, plus the GC properties are will need to be used for the sustainable economic development of the TC community in the north (hotels, restaurants, factories, etc;) one adds all the GC properties that were illegitimately sold en masse to foreigners, then definately the exchange balance in terms of area and definately in terms of value, has or will soon be violated. It is for this reason that this practice should have not been allowed by the TC “authorities.” Unfortunately, they are not willing to do anything to contain it, thus living no other option to the GCs, who see their rights being under such an immanent threat, to take any possible and feasible measure in order to stop it.

For the time being and under the circumstances, the only measures that can be taken are based on the mere illegality of the practice from an international law and human rights perspective.

[RAFAELLA]

Rafaella,
In my opinion, there are certain thinks in life that people should refrain from saying, even within the context of merely joking. One such think is to suggest to oneself or to others that s/he is naturally superior due to his race, cultural background or ethnicity. In my opinion, such behavior exerts and reveals luck of culture and arrogance of the worst kind and constitutes hubris. If it is done repetitively, it also reveals the existence of a suppressed inferiority complex, which has been transformed and then expressed as a superiority complex. I say this because I noticed that all too often you express yourself in such ways and many of your “jokes” revolve around such issues.

I am not suggesting that you should not feel proud and sure of your self, of your country and your cultural background. What I suggest is to refrain from advertising it in such a moronic way because it makes you look stupid, although in reality you are quite an intelligent and educated person.

Kifeas, you have every right to express your opinion and it's respected. You can say I behave in a moronic way and I look stupid, that's just your opinion. At the same time though, I have my opinion and I am allowed to express it as well, plus, I don't have to excuse my self for my opinion.
If my jokes are not accepted or missunderstood by you or anyone else then you should avoid reading any of my post since they are so annoying.

Everyone has his/her opinion and I don't expect everyone to share mine. Thank you.

Rafaella, for someone with a hugely misguided impression of their own intelligence, here is a saying for you to ponder: You can take the peasant out of the village but you cannot take the village out of the peasant.

So from my reply to you this is the only thing you can manage to give as your reply?

Well, what can I say for you Ango ?
What can I say for a person who takes pleasure in hearing about the illegal sale of our land at the occupied areas.
...and i have another saying for you, just to enrich your vocabulary:
Donkeys do not become race horses by wearing racing saddles

[Svetlana]

Hi Rafaella

If you assume British people are of lower intelligence because they have bought in the North, what do you make of the fact that ten times more have bought property in the RoC? Does this make them more intelligent?

Lana

[Anglo]

I'm not belittling your loss but when you look at the bigger picture and the length of time/water under the bridge you should psychologically 'move on' as TCs seemed to have done.

It is very easy for you to be cavalier about the murder of loved ones and the theft of ancestral homes.[/quote]

You introduced the word 'murder' - I was talking about property. And that's why I said that I do not want to belittle anyone's loss. By the way, in the same non-cavalier vain, are there not TCs who have lost loved one's through murder and who have decided to bury the past and move on? I have met some and they exist as examples of human dignity transcending terrible suffering, without bitterness.

[Alexios]

Hi Rafaella

If you assume British people are of lower intelligence because they have bought in the North, what do you make of the fact that ten times more have bought property in the RoC? Does this make them more intelligent?

Lana

For God,s sake Svetlana, I think enough has been said on this issue.I think NOBODY in this forum is stupid or insensitive enough to make such generalizations and mean it...please cheer up:)

[Anglo]

Kifeas, I must say that you have some well thought out arguments in lots of different areas. However, I do not agree with you that the TRNC did nothing to try to cool down the property boom. Firstly, Talat tried to introduce a leashold only provision for foreigners - which had a major impact on purchases. Secondly, he increased the VAT payable by foreigners to 15% - which also had a big impact on the market. Both these gestutres were reversed because in return for these gestures Talat received nothing from the GC side - ie a lifting of the embargoes (which would allow the tourist industry to flourish, thus replacing the reliance on property), nor did he receive any gestures about a genuine return to the negotiating table.

It is my impression that the TRNC and Turkey will happily switch off the property boom in return for genuine negotiations along the lines of the A-Plan. Without that as a prospect why should they terminate the only source of income in the economy. So, the ball is firmly back in the GC court and will remain there for another 10 to 15 years at least.

[Anglo]

Hi Rafaella

If you assume British people are of lower intelligence because they have bought in the North, what do you make of the fact that ten times more have bought property in the RoC? Does this make them more intelligent?

Lana

For God,s sake Svetlana, I think enough has been said on this issue.I think NOBODY in this forum is stupid or insensitive enough to make such generalizations and mean it...please cheer up:)

I see you look at the glass as half full - not half empty!