Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Hi again everyone

TC's have had administrative bodies and organisations such as the "Nicosia Turkish Municipality" (founded in 1958) and "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" long before the inception of the Republic. Both Cypriot communities have been effectively governing their own affairs long before 1974. The establishment of the RoC effectively cemented this segregation, to ask TC's to all of a sudden drop all this and reunite under the terms offered by GC's is something I don't see happening.

Yes Umit, the TCs (Muslims) and GCs (Christians) were separated from the time of Ottoman rule, with Muslims having far more rights while the Christians were treated as second category people. Just because we had such racist discriminations and oppression of the majority of the population for a long time this is not an excuse to continue having such things today. Otherwise Slavery would have never been abolished with the excuse that we had it for a long time and therefore they must be OK.

That said, as compromise, we have already accepted that you can have a lot more than a "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" and "Nicosia Turkish Municipality". In my last post I talked about TCs having control of the internal affairs of a component state of a proportional to population size (18%) and a share in the power of the central government of equivalent proportion. Unfortunately your community is so greedy that a proportional share is not enough for them.

[Piratis]

TC's are seen as a minority community and under current norms we can only demand self determination on the basis of our community being subjected to genocide.

If thats the case then 1/3rd of Turkey should belong to us, since the Turks have murdered 100 times more Cypriots than the loses you had in the wars and conflicts you started against us. The other 1/3rd of Turkey should go to the Kurds, and the remaining 3rd to the Armenians.

By the way, you have been openly challenged by Papadopoulos to take our case to the ICC and you refused.

[bill cobbett]

TC's are seen as a minority community and under current norms we can only demand self determination on the basis of our community being subjected to genocide.

The right of self-determination is that of countries or “peoples” as the UN refers to them, but when it comes to the rights of ethnic groups such as the Turkish Cypriots, then the appropriate charter is that of the…

”Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities”

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/minorities.htm

It is important to note that the ICC (international Criminal Court) via the Rome statute has a very wide definition for the term genocide.

Article 6 of the Rome statute

Article 6: Genocide

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

It's very funny that you see signs of genocide during the years 1963 to 1967 yet are oblivious to the REAL genocide that took place in Cyprus for which I provide evidence here...

cyprus22120.html

Agreed... on rights to self-determination, we have said it time and time again, yet it still crops up.

Rights to self-determination only apply to nation-states and not to any sub-group.

If you think about it, if they did apply to sub-groups, then every single nation-state in the world would be at risk of being broken up.

[Lordo]

TC's are seen as a minority community and under current norms we can only demand self determination on the basis of our community being subjected to genocide.

The right of self-determination is that of countries or “peoples” as the UN refers to them, but when it comes to the rights of ethnic groups such as the Turkish Cypriots, then the appropriate charter is that of the…

”Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities”

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/minorities.htm

It is important to note that the ICC (international Criminal Court) via the Rome statute has a very wide definition for the term genocide.

Article 6 of the Rome statute

Article 6: Genocide

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

It's very funny that you see signs of genocide during the years 1963 to 1967 yet are oblivious to the REAL genocide that took place in Cyprus for which I provide evidence here...

cyprus22120.html

Agreed... on rights to self-determination, we have said it time and time again, yet it still crops up.

Rights to self-determination only apply to nation-states and not to any sub-group.

If you think about it, if they did apply to sub-groups, then every single nation-state in the world would be at risk of being broken up.

it does apply to the founding nations of a state. there is a difference. especially if their language is one of the official languages.

[bill cobbett]

TC's are seen as a minority community and under current norms we can only demand self determination on the basis of our community being subjected to genocide.

The right of self-determination is that of countries or “peoples” as the UN refers to them, but when it comes to the rights of ethnic groups such as the Turkish Cypriots, then the appropriate charter is that of the…

”Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities”

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/minorities.htm

It is important to note that the ICC (international Criminal Court) via the Rome statute has a very wide definition for the term genocide.

Article 6 of the Rome statute

Article 6: Genocide

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

It's very funny that you see signs of genocide during the years 1963 to 1967 yet are oblivious to the REAL genocide that took place in Cyprus for which I provide evidence here...

cyprus22120.html

Agreed... on rights to self-determination, we have said it time and time again, yet it still crops up.

Rights to self-determination only apply to nation-states and not to any sub-group.

If you think about it, if they did apply to sub-groups, then every single nation-state in the world would be at risk of being broken up.

it does apply to the founding nations of a state. there is a difference. especially if their language is one of the official languages.

The "founding nations of a state" ... !!!

Sounds like more of your ill-thought out Partitionist kafenion talk or in simple language... GIBBERISH!!

There is only one founding nation in the case of CY and that is .... err let's have a think...

... The whole indivisible CY.

... and then more gibberish when you refer to official languages... now you run along and try putting that past such nations as the Swiss...

[Piratis]

Even those who have a right for self-determination they have it over territory that belongs to them. This is why it is called self-determination.

Otherwise any country could invade another, kill and ethnically cleanse most of the native population, transfer foreign settlers on the occupied territory, and then claim that the illegal occupiers have a "self-determination" right over the land they illegally occupy. Of course they don't. Some people should realize that we are living in the 21st century, not the 15th.

[bill cobbett]

Hi again everyone

TC's have had administrative bodies and organisations such as the "Nicosia Turkish Municipality" (founded in 1958) and "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" long before the inception of the Republic. Both Cypriot communities have been effectively governing their own affairs long before 1974. The establishment of the RoC effectively cemented this segregation, to ask TC's to all of a sudden drop all this and reunite under the terms offered by GC's is something I don't see happening.

Yes Umit, the TCs (Muslims) and GCs (Christians) were separated from the time of Ottoman rule, with Muslims having far more rights while the Christians were treated as second category people. Just because we had such racist discriminations and oppression of the majority of the population for a long time this is not an excuse to continue having such things today. Otherwise Slavery would have never been abolished with the excuse that we had it for a long time and therefore they must be OK.

That said, as compromise, we have already accepted that you can have a lot more than a "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" and "Nicosia Turkish Municipality". In my last post I talked about TCs having control of the internal affairs of a component state of a proportional to population size (18%) and a share in the power of the central government of equivalent proportion. Unfortunately your community is so greedy that a proportional share is not enough for them.

Yes, can we not be led astray by the unhelpful gibberish of the Partitionist and Turkish Agent Lordo and be a bit more constructive.

In particular any reaction to the equitable offer by Piratis, particularly the bit in bold please ...???

[repulsewarrior]

...truth is, there are many countries that are Bicommunal, and it is Mankind which has hopes we will choose it to define our Constitution. i suggest that there can be many Cypriot Constituencies, where they can as one People in a Unitary State sustain something vital as Communities, equals as Assemblies too, Bizonal having Territorial Jurisdiction, because these electors as Citizens understand that this Liberty as Persons is Secured from the Freedom they defend in a Republic as Individuals, United in this larger sense, without distinction or discrimination, as one People as one State.

...peace in Cyprus; it means Greeks choose a Greek state to exist like the other states, a Cypriot Constituency (physically a place where one can enjoy being Greek, first); an end to the Greek State with the recognition as people that they have greater Representation because there exists Sovereign a Cypriot State. counterintuitively it makes sense, because a single Unitary State is sufficient (and ultimately, quite correct), however it prepares Cyprus for its great leap forward, not just Greeks with interesting minorities, a cosmopolitain inclusive society which can promote its distinctive Identities, including Greek, open to the great changes which necessarily will follow to its population where they must be more able to facilitate exchange, which at a crossroad it can do little to resist.

[Lordo]

Hi again everyone

TC's have had administrative bodies and organisations such as the "Nicosia Turkish Municipality" (founded in 1958) and "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" long before the inception of the Republic. Both Cypriot communities have been effectively governing their own affairs long before 1974. The establishment of the RoC effectively cemented this segregation, to ask TC's to all of a sudden drop all this and reunite under the terms offered by GC's is something I don't see happening.

Yes Umit, the TCs (Muslims) and GCs (Christians) were separated from the time of Ottoman rule, with Muslims having far more rights while the Christians were treated as second category people. Just because we had such racist discriminations and oppression of the majority of the population for a long time this is not an excuse to continue having such things today. Otherwise Slavery would have never been abolished with the excuse that we had it for a long time and therefore they must be OK.

That said, as compromise, we have already accepted that you can have a lot more than a "Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce" and "Nicosia Turkish Municipality". In my last post I talked about TCs having control of the internal affairs of a component state of a proportional to population size (18%) and a share in the power of the central government of equivalent proportion. Unfortunately your community is so greedy that a proportional share is not enough for them.

Yes, can we not be led astray by the unhelpful gibberish of the Partitionist and Turkish Agent Lordo and be a bit more constructive.

In particular any reaction to the equitable offer by Piratis, particularly the bit in bold please ...???

there is nothing partionist about mult-nation states. there are lots of them around. you live in one don't you. and it is split into seperate zones too and yet it is a united kingdom. perhaps thats whats missing a king.

[Lordo]

Even those who have a right for self-determination they have it over territory that belongs to them. This is why it is called self-determination.

Otherwise any country could invade another, kill and ethnically cleanse most of the native population, transfer foreign settlers on the occupied territory, and then claim that the illegal occupiers have a "self-determination" right over the land they illegally occupy. Of course they don't. Some people should realize that we are living in the 21st century, not the 15th.

you really need to look around a little more as to what the amerikan, the australians, the southafrikans and any other kans you can think of has done it. poland and czechs have german land even in the eu as we speak.

regarding the kurds. you don't make sense at all. on one side you oppose the political system of turkey which is one man one vote and yet you propose it for cyprus. this does not make sense. care to explain.