Cyprus-Forum.com

[bg_turk]

First of all I am glad you agreed that the Annan Plan was a partition plan.

The Annan Plan cannot be a partition plan, if 24% of GCs are not seperatists and I have deduced this from your statements. If you refuse to accept the laws of logic, how can we ever reach any conclusion. In one of your statements, I actually thought that you agreed that 24% of GCs are seperatists, and I have therefore wrongly concluded that the Annan Plan is a partition plan.

However doing it intentionally is an insult for the intelligence of the people you expect to accept them. I know you don't except me to accept what you say, so personally am not insulted.

I am not trying to insult you.

Just to make things clear: I have never said that the 24% of GCs that voted yes are traitors. I clearly said that most of them voted "yes" simply because they accepted that there was no better alternative and that such alternative would not appear in the future.

Sorry, I have misinterprted one of your statements as stated above.

[Piratis]

well if you disagree with (2) you must retract a statement of yours

My statement: "... are separatists since the support the illegal division" is not related with the acceptance of the plan as I have clearly stated about 10 times already.

My opinion is that the Anan plan was a unification plan and those TCs that supported it cannot be classified as seperatists, they are unionists.

My opinion is that the Annan plan was a partition plan. If for you having two states were:
1) The central state laws are NOT above the component state laws
2) Each state will have its own flag and anthem.
3) Residence would be restricted based on ethnicity
etc shows a united country, then fine. You can have an opinion that earth is square if you wish.

The seperation is imposed on them by the RoC which does not accept them as equal citizens and currently refuses to return their properties.

In this case you are wrong as a fact and it is not a matter of opinion. TCs do not want to be equal citizens. This is what we want. What the TCs want is for their 18% community to have equal (=50%) power with the 82% community of GCs. Furthermore they demand human rights violations of GCs based on the results of the ethnic cleansing they performed against us in 1974.

Yet, this is only my opinion, and I cannot prove it using the laws of logic since apparently our most fundamental assumptions are diametrically opposed.

This depends on which posts of yours we read. Didn't you say before that " I may safely agree with you that the Annan Plan was a partition plan"?

[Piratis]

The Annan Plan cannot be a partition plan, if 24% of GCs are not seperatists and I have deduced this from your statements.

No, you deducted this from your own statements not mine. I never said that "only separatists vote for partition plans", this is what you said. What I said was that "separatists vote only for partition plans"(Two things that as we agreed already are not the same) . Also I didn't say that "Voting for partition is support for illegal division" this is again what you said. The word "acceptance" and the word "support" are not synonymous.

[bg_turk]

My statement: "... are separatists since the support the illegal division" is not related with the acceptance of the plan as I have clearly stated about 10 times already.

And my reply to that was that those who accept division are as guiltiy as those who seek it.

My opinion is that the Annan plan was a partition plan. If for you having two states were:
1) The central state laws are NOT above the component state laws
2) Each state will have its own flag and anthem.
3) Residence would be restricted based on ethnicity
etc shows a united country, then fine. You can have an opinion that earth is square if you wish.

(2) and (3) can be easily modified to address your concerns, as long as the viability of the TC state is ensured. (1) is not a big problem, it doesn't prevent Switzerland from being a unified country.

In this case you are wrong as a fact and it is not a matter of opinion. TCs do not want to be equal citizens. This is what we want. What the TCs want is for their 18% community to have equal (=50%) power with the 82% community of GCs. Furthermore they demand human rights violations of GCs based on the results of the ethnic cleansing they performed against us in 1974.

TC want to be able to be in control of their own destiny as a community and to conserve their traditions, language and lands, and not be assimilated by the majority of GCs. In an ideal world and a democratic RoC these concerns would be unjustifiable, but unfortunaltely the RoC has a very strong GC bias and it has performed ethnic cleansing against its TCs in 1974 as well, so turkish cypriots will not accept to be under its control.

This depends on which posts of yours we read. Didn't you say before that " I may safely agree with you that the Annan Plan was a partition plan"?

If we assume 24% of GCs are seperatists, yes the Annan Plan is a seperatist plan. But since you have said the assumption is untrue, then the conclusion must be untrue as well.

[Piratis]

And my reply to that was that those who accept division are as guiltiy as those who seek it.

So if I put a gun on your head and I ask from you to give me your money otherwise I will kill you, if you accept my demand you will be as quilty as me?

(2) and (3) can be easily modified to address your concerns, as long as the viability of the TC state is ensured.

Easy for you. The TCs do not want to hear about these, espcecially (3).

(1) is not a big problem, it doesn't prevent Switzerland from being a unified country.

Switzerland is a confederation,not a federation. But even Switzerland is not like this:

Annan Plan:

Article 3 Constitution as supreme law
2. The federal government shall fully respect and not infringe upon the
powers and functions of the constituent states under this Constitution.
Each constituent state shall fully respect and not infringe upon the
powers and functions of the federal government or the other constituent
state under this Constitution. There shall be no hierarchy between
federal and constituent state laws

Swiss Confederation

Art. 49 Supremacy of and Respect for Federal Law
1 Federal law takes precedence over contrary cantonal law.
2 The Confederation shall ensure that the Cantons respect federal law.

TC want to be able to be in control of their own destiny as a community and to conserve their traditions, language and lands, and not be assimilated by the majority of GCs. In an ideal world and a democratic RoC these concerns would be unjustifiable, but unfortunaltely the RoC has a very strong GC bias and it has performed ethnic cleansing against its TCs in 1974 as well, so turkish cypriots will not accept to be under its control.

RoC performed no ethnic cleansing in 74. In 74 what happened wat the Turkish invasion and TCs moved to the north in order to realize their dream for a separate country.

[bg_turk]

No, you deducted this from your own statements not mine. I never said that "only separatists vote for partition plans", this is what you said. What I said was that "separatists vote only for partition plans"(Two things that as we agreed already are not the same) .

What you said is

... are separatists since the support the illegal division.

is equivalent to "only seperatists accept illegal division" and subsequently

"only separatists vote for partition plans"

[bg_turk]

RoC performed no ethnic cleansing in 74. In 74 what happened wat the Turkish invasion and TCs moved to the north in order to realize their dream for a separate country.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/birgin%2 ... atives.htm

Salih H. Kiral gives an account of the day when his daughter Rahme was murdered by the Greeks:

"The Greeks entered the ' Turkish quarter of Paphos on the 14th 'August, 1971. They gunned down the Turkish men that they lay their eyes on, and beat up the women and the old with the butt-ends of rifles. A few minutes later a Greek gunman called us to come out. We opened the door to come out. He moved us down instantly with an automatic weapon. We were bathed in blood. We were wounded, I on the head and the leg, my brother on the leg, my nephew on the belly and my daughter on the arm. The body of my other daughter Rahme who was 3 years old, was riddled with 40 bullets. A Greek who came in through the back door forced me and my daughter in my arms out although we were both wounded. A landrover belonging to UN Peace Keeping Force that was passing by halted on seeing us. Those in the landrover took us immediately to the Greek Hospital. After a few hours my daughter Rahme passed away. After bandaging my wound they took me to the prisoner's camp. Having spent five days there I was taken back to the Greek Hospital. My wounds were bleeding. As there was no vacant bed there I was sent to the Turkish hospital. Five months later I was taken by the Red Cross to the Liberated Turkish Zone. "

Zebra H. Kiral, recalls the day when her son Hasan and her grand-daughter Rahme were murdered by the Greeks:

" The barbaric Greeks encircling the Turkish quarter of Paphos entered it on the 14th August, 1974. They plunged into the streets of the Turkish quarter, gunned down the men, beat up the women and the old with the butt-ends of rifles. Faced with this situation we shut ourselves in our homes. Five or six minutes later a Greek named Ghatti having smashed the pane of the front door ordered us out. My son Hasan Kiral and myself came out into the yard to open the door. The Greek shouted out to my son, 'Come out, you dog.' 'Let me call the others inside' replied my son. But he forced my son out at gun point saying, 'Let the others come out later.' As my son stepped out he was seriously shot by the two bullets from the rifle of the barbaric Greek. Amidst the shots fired by the Greek I went to the open space, where the Turks were gradually gathering. The Greeks kept all the men there and ordered women and children to go back home. When I got back home my son was lying on the ground in a pool of blood. I then learned that my other two sons Ismail and Salih and my grand children Uhan and Zebra were wounded and that my grand-daughter Rahme was murdered. Thereupon I lost consciousness. "

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Greek%20 ... 201974.htm

Greek Invasion

By 15th July 1974 a powerful force of mainland Greek troops had assembled in Cyprus and with their backing the Greek Cypriot National Guard overthrew Makarios and installed Nicos Sampson as "President." On 22nd July Washington Star News reported: "Bodies littered the streets and there were mass burials... People told by Makarios to lay down their guns were shot by the National Guard."

Turkish Cypriots appealed to the Guarantor powers for help, but only Turkey was willing to make any effective response. The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on 26th February 1981 in which he said "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS - I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus."

Even Greek Cypriots sought Turkey's help. In her memoirs, Greek Cypriot MP Rina Katselli, says "16th July 1974 Is Makarios alive? Is he dead? The Makarios supporters arrested, the EOKA-B supporters freed... I did not shed a tear, why should I? Did the stupidity and fanaticism deserve a tear? There are some who beg Turkey to intervene. They prefer the intervention of Turkey." 18th July 1974 "My God!... Everyone is frozen with fear...the old man who asked for the body of his son was shot on the spot..The tortures and executions at the central prison... everyone is frozen with horror. Nothing is sacred to these people, and they call themselves Greeks!... we must not keep that name any longer."

So these people left to realize his dream of a seperate country?

And this is one single example of the brutality used by greek paramilitaries against defenceless citizens of the RoC! If the RoC treats its citizens like this or tolerates such treatment, if I were its citizens I would have opted for partition as well.
Good Night!

[Piratis]

brutality used by greek paramilitaries

What you said is the retaliation to the Turkish invasion by GC paramilitaries (not RoC).
I guess you expected that GCs should have not reacted at all and remain calm and "correct" while Turkey and TCs were stealing their land, killing GCs by the thousands, raping women and children and performing ethnic cleansing by forcing 200.000 people out of their homes.
The cases that you mentioned and similar are close to nothing when they are compared with the 6000 GC dead and the 200.000 GC refugees. TCs didn't even suffer 1/100th the casualties that we did. Of course Turkey is trying hard to hand pick one by one the few such cases in order to use them for its propaganda.

The fact is that in 74 those things started after Turkey invaded and not before.

[bg_turk]

I guess you expected that GCs should have not reacted at all and remain calm and "correct" while Turkey and TCs were stealing their land, killing GCs by the thousands, raping women and children and performing ethnic cleansing by forcing 200.000 people out of their homes.
The cases that you mentioned and similar are close to nothing when they are compared with the 6000 GC dead and the 200.000 GC refugees. TCs didn't even suffer 1/100th the casualties that we did. Of course Turkey is trying hard to hand pick one by one the few such cases in order to use them for its propaganda.

Is this a justification and approval of the killing of innocent TCs and their ethnic cleansing from their homes?

[Piratis]

You call the killing of some 10s of TCs an "ethnic cleansing"? Don't be redicoulous my friend.
Ethnic cleansing, genocides and stealing what others created is what the Turks excel at. Go learn what those terms mean and then come back to talk.

If there can be no justification for those actions, then I guess you should agree that Turkey should have never invaded, since those actions happened only after the Turkish invasion. So why do you justify the invasion?