Cyprus-Forum.com

[kimon07]

The only observation I would make on the Greco- Indian kingdoms is that now little trace of a legacy seems to exist.

True: Islam made sure about that!

[kimon07]

This is not about Turkish Speaking`for that matter Greek Speaking Cypriots and what they might believe about their Genos. Ethnos is however normally wholly artificial construct which can be imposed or even invented.

Greek "Speaking" and Turkih "Speaking" and (I suppose) Armenian "Speaking" Cypriots? I think you should regard with more respect the ethnic feelings and pride of the Cypriots. You may keep above terms for the neo Cypriots. Am sure they don't mind.

[supporttheunderdog]

This is not about Turkish Speaking`for that matter Greek Speaking Cypriots and what they might believe about their Genos. Ethnos is however normally wholly artificial construct which can be imposed or even invented.

Greek "Speaking" and Turkih "Speaking" and (I suppose) Armenian "Speaking" Cypriots? I think you should regard with more respect the ethnic feelings and pride of the Cypriots. You may keep above terms for the neo Cypriots. Am sure they don't mind.

This topoc is being derailed and the lastr few comments probbaly belong elsewhere but this is the issue with Cyprus that contributed to the invasion - because of imposed / invented ethnosity that denied the Cypriot in favour of the alleged motherlands of Greece and Turkey, whose only interest in Cyprus is as pawn in their own rivalries.

[supporttheunderdog]

recent studies suggest that more claims of Greek Ancestry do not stand up to Scrutiny

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

very limited input by a few randy invaders.

............

3. The ethnic identity of groups of people is also influenced by cultural elements and influences, not just genes (just look at the TCs)......

According to the study of your link above:

Many ethnically and linguistically distinct populations inhabit this region, three of which (Burusho, Kalash and the Pathan) claim to be descendents of Greek soldiers who invaded the Indian subcontinent.

Most Turkish Cypriots, even if they know that they are descended from linopambakoi, "CLAIM" to be and believe they are Turkish.
What do you think Stud? Are they or are they not?

And please note. The presence of the Greeks there was not instantaneous (just a short term military invsasion). It lasted from about 330 BC to about 100 AD (including the Indo-Greek and the Bactrian Kingdoms era).

Why ask the Turkish Cypriots when you can answer the question yourself.

Surely centuries of Ottoman rule must have intoduced Turkish DNA into the Greek gene pool, did it not?

For a while I was worried you would not jump in to derail the topic. Glad I was wrong.

I think you invited derailing of the topic with references to the the ethnicity of the Turkish Cypriots.

[kimon07]

Surely centuries of Ottoman rule must have intoduced Turkish DNA into the Greek gene pool, did it not?

I think you invited derailing of the topic with references to the the ethnicity of the Turkish Cypriots.

No I did not. What I said, (to which he answered with his irrelevant post) was that you can NOT DENY to the Pathans and the Kalash the right to believe they are descendants of Greeks, like you can not deny to the Turkish Cypriots their Turkishness (regardless of their descent) as long as THEY BELIEVE in it. Meaning that what is very important in defining the ethnicity of people (besides the genetic elements) is the cultural background of their society. If you live and behave and are raised and educated as a Greek or a Turk then you ARE just that. Where did you see such an invitation?

And by the way: Were NOT the Janissaries Turks??

[Me Ed]

I was actually supporting Kimons hypothesis on the TCs before being unnecessarily rebuked in that as he probably possesses Turkish genes, that does not make him a Turk.

[supporttheunderdog]

Surely centuries of Ottoman rule must have intoduced Turkish DNA into the Greek gene pool, did it not?

I think you invited derailing of the topic with references to the the ethnicity of the Turkish Cypriots.

No I did not. What I said, (to which he answered with his irrelevant post) was that you can NOT DENY to the Pathans and the Kalash the right to believe they are descendants of Greeks, like you can not deny to the Turkish Cypriots their Turkishness (regardless of their descent) as long as THEY BELIEVE in it. Meaning that what is very important in defining the ethnicity of people (besides the genetic elements) is the cultural background of their society. If you live and behave and are raised and educated as a Greek or a Turk then you ARE just that. Where did you see such an invitation?

And by the way: Were NOT the Janissaries Turks??

your words were

Most Turkish Cypriots, even if they know that they are descended from linopambakoi, "CLAIM" to be and believe they are Turkish.
What do you think Stud? Are they or are they not?

nothing in there about a right to believe or is your concern that it heightens your own ethnic insecurities?

As to the topic and other points raised try reading this one http://euroheritage.net/greeksinasia.shtm

Considering that most European genetic groups do not have light hair and green eyes, this makes it exceptionally difficult to claim a European descent for these peoples or especially from the Greeks, who have mostly dark features.

or try this one cited in the nature article:
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.0010070
very technical but as this one points out the kalsh appear to be a genetic isolate.

[kimon07]

I was actually supporting Kimons hypothesis on the TCs before being unnecessarily rebuked in that as he probably possesses Turkish genes, that does not make him a Turk.

You neither I suppose?

[barouti]

Of course there is no surprise that the moronic posts in this thread are from the usual suspects of the Huey, Dewey, and Louie of this forum ie Get a Life, Mr Ed and Mr Limey.

But I need to express my disatisfaction re posting pics of fair-haired individuals to argue that the Burusho/Pathan/Kalasha are of Greek descent on that basis. If anything this proves they're most likely don't have Greek ancestry. Greeks in antiquety like today have have always had a predominantly Mediterranean features. FFS, we're a Mediterranean people and not Scandinvians! We can even see this with the ancient mosaics and paintings that show a dark-haired people with olive complexions. Take a look at this from Encyclopedia Britannica:



No, we Greeks are not some kind of pure race. This is Nazi bs. It becomes even more Nazi when some argue that the ancient Greeks were are blonde and blue eyed people. And let's be rational. At least let's agree on this. There's no such thing as a pure race. Brings to mind a conversation I once had with a German girl who stated the "only pure race" are the Scandinavians, and to which I pointed out what about the Africans and Chinese. Why is it that blonde is "pure" and dark is "mongrel". Anyway.

What my point is, this claim first appeared in the 19th century when British and other European explorers first encounted them and put forth a theory their features were due from an obvious European ancestry. Of course at that time they began the myth that the ancient Greeks were a blonde-haired blue-eyed people. But this is due more to wishful thinkin from the northern Europeans that our ancestors somehow resembled them physically hence solidifying their own sense of a continuance from the glories of ancient Greece. Regardingf the Pathan, Kalasha and whoever else, I've actually dwelved into this and when you look at them collectively most have dark hair and brown-eyes. Maybe 10-20% do have fair hair and which is consistent with Modern Greeks anyway. But it is misleading to assert that they all are faired hair and therefore no doubt of Greek descent. Now, do I consider them Greeks? If they say they are, I accept it. There was Greek colonization in the region in the wake of Alexander the Great and therefore I have no reason to doubt it. What I do contest is the argument that they're "absolutely and definitely" Greek because some of them have fair hair and blue eyes.

[kimon07]

What I do contest is the argument that they're "absolutely and definitely" Greek because some of them have fair hair and blue eyes.

I fully agree with you on this. By posting those particular pictures, and not others of other Pathans and Kalash with more Mediterranean features, I wanted to contest the study which STUD had posted, according to which the majority of these three tribes are of pure Pakistani descent.