Cyprus-Forum.com

[tubegallery]

Something to talk about, but I think it would be quite effective in practice. Sure there's a heap of details to fill in, but thats for the beuaracrats to fill in. Question is does this sort of agreement strike a good balance?

Issues which are of Importance to Greek Cypriots

1. Return of land, currently in north Cyprus
2. Right of return to property in any negotiated settlement
3. Removal of Turkish army
4. Removal of Turkish settlers
5. Strong central government in any new partnership

Issues which are of Importance to Turkish Cypriots

1. Lifting of economic isolation
2. Removal of all embargoes
3. Recognition as a separate founding partner with equal rights and status
4. Sovereignty
5. To not become a minority in their region. Limits on Greek – Cypriot migration to any future Turkish Cypriot State within new united Cyprus
6. To gain some economic parity with GC so as not to be economically overpowered
7. A weak central government

There may be and there surely is further issues of importance for both peoples, and also for all the individuals reading this. But these are the main points and the ones which seemingly cannot be overcome by generations of leaders from both sides.

Proposed Solution

Greek demands that should be met

1. Turks to return 12% of land including Varhosa to GC admin. border to be a relatively straight line

2. Turk army reduced to 5000 troops who are to remain in their barracks unless asked to intervene either by Federal government or Turk Cypriot State

3. Turkish settlers to be offered inducements to return back to Turkey, with help from EU, and USA. Those not wanting to return and have been in Cyprus for at least 3 years shall have the right to remain.

Conditions

a. If the property they currently live in was distributed to them for free or below cost they are to pay 50% of today’s market value to the original GC owner. Banks in both North Cyprus and Turkey should be prepared to organise these mortgages.

b. If the land is TC title deed or they paid market price for GC property previously, then section 5(b) will apply, in order for GC title deed holders to receive compensation.

4. Greeks may return to the north to a limit of 20,000 people, until Turkey joins EU + 10yrs

5. All Greek Cypriots who do not return to their land are to receive compensation through the following formula;

Please look at 3(a) first, then as follows;

a. Swap title deeds with a Turk Cypriot who has comparable property in south and make necessary adjustments, either way.

b. Receive compensation from Turkey for today’s monetary value.

6. Turkey to drop veto and allow a united Cyprus to join NATO and any other organisation should it wish to do so.

7. No more than 20,000 foreigners (includes Turks, and everyone else, EU citizens included) are to be allowed to settle in Turkish Cyprus State, until Turkey joins Eu+10yrs


Turk demands that should be met

1. Sovereignty to be granted as a state of united Cyprus

2. All embargoes and isolations to be lifted

3. Right for all Turk Cypriots to return to their property in Greek Cypriot State. If they do not wish they can swap with GC or gain compensation from Greek Cypriot State


Federal solution

State Elections

1. All Greek - Cypriots no matter where located are only eligible to vote for Greek Cypriot State parliamnent

2. All Turk Cypriots no matter where located only eligible to vote for Turk Cypriot state parliament

3. In case of inter-marriage or foreigners they are to vote in the state they are residing

Federal Elections

1. 4 yr fixed terms

2. Federal parliament to consist of 2 houses – Lower House and Upper Hourse

a. Lower House - House of Reps for example should be 100 seats and seats allocated as per the total population of Cyprus. eg if one state has 70% pop, 70 seats will be allocated to it. Ethnicity does not matter in lower house elections and no matter if you are TC or GC and what region you reside in your vote counts according to that region.
b. Upper House - Senate will consist of 12 senators from each state, + 1 armenian senator, + 1 maronite.

c. Maronite and Armenian senators are elected by all voters of each group irrespective of which state they live in.

d. Senators from each state can only be elected from each ethnic group, eg GC, no matter which state located elect senators for GC state and TC no matter where located elect senators for TC state.

3. Prime Minister is leader of largest party in Lower House irrespective of which state or race that person is from.

4. President and Vice – President are to be ceremonial figure heads, and are to be appointed by combined sitting of parliament for 8 yr terms, for a maximum of 2 terms and this should be first task of newly elected parliament.

a. President should not be of the same race as the Prime Minister

b. Vice President should not be of the same race as the President

5. President and Vice President– not to feature in politics or parliament and role is to serve as figurehead representing island, eg in same role as royal families do.

[garbitsch]

I cannot really see much difference from Annan plan, which makes your proposal unacceptable by the majority of G.Cs.

[tubegallery]

The main difference is that it strengthens the federal government a great deal. It means that at all time the Prime Minister and effective leader is a Greek Cypriot and that the Upper House is now also represented by a Maronite and Armenian representatives, thus making the system very much workable. In comparison the Annan plan would have led to endless stalemates in the upper house.

This would effectively kill off any veto rights which the Annan plan enshrined and was such a disincentive to the GC's and a clear recipe for disaster in the future.

The strenthening of the central government making it much more functional, while at the same time protecting the integrity of the TC state and providing a state government to manage their internal affairs and also a limit on GC migration for the foreseeable future also covers the main concerns of the TC's.

There is no more absurdity of counting votes twice for the TC (annan plan) and all of this nonsense, making a mockery of a democratic system. Its a straight up election based on population numbers in the lower house, with an upper house representing the states interests, in addition to the minorities of the Armenian and Maronites.

At the same time the TC's know that under this system they will forever have a state which will be governed by themselves and not be diluted in the future by GC migration. If GC's cannot accept this fact, then there is no future for a united Cyprus, and they may as well continue their endless chatter in the coffee house's for the next 50 years about the "Cyprus Problem"

[cypezokyli]

its always nice to get some new proposals

i have some questions though

Turk army reduced to 5000 troops who are to remain in their barracks unless asked to intervene either by Federal government or Turk Cypriot State

when it comes to this i would prefer aplan. at least they will be reduced even more at a later stage, and we would dismantle the national guard that costs a lot of money and is a big wste of time for the soldiers

4. Removal of Turkish settlers

i dont see how this proposal solves the problem

3

. Turkish settlers to be offered inducements to return back to Turkey, with help from EU, and USA. Those not wanting to return and have been in Cyprus for at least 3 years shall have the right to remain.

the gc are in generall in favor a specific number that will leave.
most of them are in cyprus over three years and the inducements could work or not. in theory most will have the right to stay... and i guess that is difficult for the gcs to accept.

b. Receive compensation from Turkey for today’s monetary value

that would make gcs more happy. if i am not mistaken in the aplan the compensations would have been paid by the cypriot goverment, that is in effect by the refugees themselves

1. Sovereignty to be granted as a state of united Cyprus

what do u exactly mean by that?

2. All embargoes and isolations to be lifted

no need to mention that. its clear

for the election system

Federal parliament to consist of 2 houses – Lower House and Upper Hourse

whats the point of having 2 houses? the decisions will be in any case be taken at the upper house


as for the prime minister

Prime Minister is leader of largest party in Lower House irrespective of which state or race that person is from.

who is voted by

Ethnicity does not matter in lower house elections and no matter if you are TC or GC and what region you reside in your vote counts according to that region.

that means in theory mixed parties which is a very beautiful proposal.
in practise it means that the prime minister will be in effect always a gc and could always make a cabinet consisting of only gcs ministers which makes the whole thing...i guess not acceptable by the tcs

President and Vice – President are to be ceremonial figure heads, and are to be appointed by combined sitting of parliament for 8 yr terms, for a maximum of 2 terms and this should be first task of newly elected parliament.

no reason to mention their races if they are just to be ceremonial figures. not mention whats the point of having them?

[cypezokyli]

This would effectively kill off any veto rights which the Annan plan enshrined and was such a disincentive to the GC's and a clear recipe for disaster in the future.

what about the upper house?
that is in effect a veto (12 gcs - 12tcs).
and dont forget that the veto is of prime importance for the tcs

The strenthening of the central government making it much more functional, while at the same time protecting the integrity of the TC state and providing a state government to manage their internal affairs and also a limit on GC migration for the foreseeable future also covers the main concerns of the TC's.

didnt u say

Greeks may return to the north to a limit of 20,000 people, until Turkey joins EU + 10yrs

?

second, i am not really sure if the tc want above all a state clean from any gcs or a say in the central goverment.

At the same time the TC's know that under this system they will forever have a state which will be governed by themselves

at the same time you mentioned a stong central goverment. where do you draw the lines? i mean what are the responsibilities of the central govermnt and the one of the federal state?

[tubegallery]

Turk army reduced to 5000 troops who are to remain in their barracks unless asked to intervene either by Federal government or Turk Cypriot State

when it comes to this i would prefer aplan. at least they will be reduced even more at a later stage, and we would dismantle the national guard that costs a lot of money and is a big wste of time for the soldiers

I don't think the TC's will at this stage accept the total removal of Turkish troops, and also more importantly if one recalls the negotiaiting of the Annan plan last year the main problem was Turkey and its leaders both political and military stated that it was incomprehensible that Turkish troops would completely vacate the island, on a strategic point of view. So at this stage the total removal of these troops should not be on the drawing board. Perhaps post Turkish EU entry the conditions will change.

4. Removal of Turkish settlers
i dont see how this proposal solves the problem

3. Turkish settlers to be offered inducements to return back to Turkey, with help from EU, and USA. Those not wanting to return and have been in Cyprus for at least 3 years shall have the right to remain.

the gc are in generall in favor a specific number that will leave.
most of them are in cyprus over three years and the inducements could work or not. in theory most will have the right to stay... and i guess that is difficult for the gcs to accept.

If ALL choose to stay then so be it. Lets not forget that if they all decided to go home there would not be much of a TC state to speak of, as large numbers of TC's left Cyprus post-1974. Sure that GC's will find this hard to accept, but when you look at the aim of this plan and thats the creation of a TC state, then you have to accept that the state should be functional in terms of population (NON GC), economically and will also feature a strong Turkish ethnic element.

1. Sovereignty to be granted as a state of united Cyprus
what do u exactly mean by that?

I mean that the state in the north, and also the south will have defined, unchangeable borders, and the TC state will b responsible for its own government, for all those matters which the central government is not responsible. This will give the TC's the sense of a real state and it will be REAL in that the GC will largely have a very minor say in the everyday running of their affairs. This does however differ from the soverignty previous TC leaders requested which vested in it real international soverignty, and was wanted in order to reach a con-federal solution. Under this proposal the power only exists as long as a United Cyprus exists. Lets not get too excited about this, because it works the same on the other side of the fence as well, so the GC's only have a state as only as a United Cyprus exists as well. What exists shoud something go wrong? Ask the superpowers, EU and USA because after all, this future state's success / failure will largely be their doing.

for the election system
Federal parliament to consist of 2 houses – Lower House and Upper Hourse

whats the point of having 2 houses? the decisions will be in any case be taken at the upper house

Two houses as explained below. Guarantees TC's will at all time have equal representation in one house as the GC's.

as for the prime minister

Prime Minister is leader of largest party in Lower House irrespective of which state or race that person is from
who is voted by
Ethnicity does not matter in lower house elections and no matter if you are TC or GC and what region you reside in your vote counts according to that region

that means in theory mixed parties which is a very beautiful proposal.
in practise it means that the prime minister will be in effect always a gc and could always make a cabinet consisting of only gcs ministers which makes the whole thing...i guess not acceptable by the tcs.

Ok i see your point but the TC's and GC's will have every opportunity to set up multi-ethnic political parties. Should they decide not to, then yes there is every chance the government of a united Cyprus will be dominated by the GC's. But this is now balanced by the TC's having a state and government of their own, and it largely becomes a question of what powers the central and state goverments are delegated. And also don't forget the TC's have equal representation in the upper house.

President and Vice – President are to be ceremonial figure heads, and are to be appointed by combined sitting of parliament for 8 yr terms, for a maximum of 2 terms and this should be first task of newly elected parliament.

no reason to mention their races if they are just to be ceremonial figures. not mention whats the point of having them?

I think they are required as another check for example. Under this system the President will effectively be a TC at all times. I think from a TC perspective, despite this position being largely ceremonial it does give them another reference of their significance and equality in the new partnership.

[tubegallery]

This would effectively kill off any veto rights which the Annan plan enshrined and was such a disincentive to the GC's and a clear recipe for disaster in the future.
what about the upper house?
that is in effect a veto (12 gcs - 12tcs).
and dont forget that the veto is of prime importance for the tcs

there are 12 GC's and 12 TC's, PLUS 1 maronite PLUS 1 Armenian.

Therefore if the GC's and TC's vote on ethnic lines the balance of power will rest with the other two minority representatives. This removes blockage of any important legislation and decisions and make the central goverment much more effective and efficient. A government in which all their decisions are blocked is not worth the taxpayers money spent to get it running. Even the TC's have to accept this.

The right of veto has historically been something the TC's have clung to as their final rights. But these days are in the past when they didnt have a state of their own, and were predominantly governed by the GC's which they did not like. But under this proposal they have their own state, own parliament, own systems in place, AND equal representation with the GC's in the upper house of the central government.

The strenthening of the central government making it much more functional, while at the same time protecting the integrity of the TC state and providing a state government to manage their internal affairs and also a limit on GC migration for the foreseeable future also covers the main concerns of the TC's.

didnt u say
Greeks may return to the north to a limit of 20,000 people, until Turkey joins EU + 10yrs
?

second, i am not really sure if the tc want above all a state clean from any gcs or a say in the central goverment.

A limit on GC migration = 20,000 people for probably the next 20 yrs. To say they wont have a say in the central government is incorrect. They will have a say as much as their population numbers allow, and also the same say in the upper house as the GC's. I know this may mean that a purely TC political party will ever be in government, but the political system constanly throws up all sorts of coaltions. What is to say that a larger GC party will not need the help of a smaller TC to form government for example? And why not multi-ethnic political parties in the future? Its a very simplistic way of thinking, ok the GC's have larger population we will never be in government. Its this type of thinking that the nationalists on both sides will be hoping the people succumb to.

At the same time the TC's know that under this system they will forever have a state which will be governed by themselves

at the same time you mentioned a stong central goverment. where do you draw the lines? i mean what are the responsibilities of the central govermnt and the one of the federal state?

its the million dollar question. But i believe the states should have power over all internal affairs which includes, education, the health system, have their own internal revenue departments for their state taxes, roads, industry etc.

The central government governs matters such as defence, international treaties, manages the relationship with the EU and other governments, federal taxtion such as a universal GST / VAT, airports, ports, and I'm sure there is a fair bit more. But I do envisage the matters which the central government is responsible for, will be clearly spelt out, and all other matters will be left to the states.

The main benefit of this system, is that I believe each level of government has a set responibility on what it governns, and they are given the powers, authority, and system to carry out those responibilites effectively and efficiently.

And lets not forget this isn't going to please anyone. If the last referendum is a guide, approx. 25% of GC's need to be swayed in favour to get over 50%m and I believe the above proposals cover many of their concerns, and would hopefully gain that level of support.

On the other side, I do beleive there will be less support among the TC's but they voted with an approx. majority of 76% so even if the level of support there drops there is still every chance it will be passed as the changes above do make the new partnership more effective and still covers most of their concerns.

[cypezokyli]

Turk army reduced to 5000 troops who are to remain in their barracks unless asked to intervene either by Federal government or Turk Cypriot State

when it comes to this i would prefer aplan. at least they will be reduced even more at a later stage, and we would dismantle the national guard that costs a lot of money and is a big wste of time for the soldiers



I don't think the TC's will at this stage accept the total removal of Turkish troops, and also more importantly if one recalls the negotiaiting of the Annan plan last year the main problem was Turkey and its leaders both political and military stated that it was incomprehensible that Turkish troops would completely vacate the island, on a strategic point of view. So at this stage the total removal of these troops should not be on the drawing board. Perhaps post Turkish EU entry the conditions will change

yes it is clear that the tc wouldnt accept the full removal of the turkish army. but a gradual reduction would be more nice. from both sides ofcource

If ALL choose to stay then so be it.

if thats how you view it then ok.
but i am not that confident that the gcs will be supporting this. in general gcs accept the staying of all those settlers who have humanitarian reasons to stay. (married with a tc, being more than 7 years, born in cyprus)

Two houses as explained below. Guarantees TC's will at all time have equal representation in one house as the GC's.

what i generally meant, was what is the point of the lower house other than electing the president? in any case everything will depend on the upper one

Should they decide not to, then yes there is every chance the government of a united Cyprus will be dominated by the GC's. But this is now balanced by the TC's having a state and government of their own

u should ask the tcs if they consider it balanced.
i cannot expresse their views

and it largely becomes a question of what powers the central and state goverments are delegated.

exactly. thats where everything lies.
and since its your proposal... how much powers are u willing to give to the tc state in order to balance out the possibiliy of absence in the central goverment?

think from a TC perspective, despite this position being largely ceremonial it does give them another reference of their significance and equality in the new partnership.

once again i am not a tc so i cannot answer

[tubegallery]

and it largely becomes a question of what powers the central and state goverments are delegated.

exactly. thats where everything lies.
and since its your proposal... how much powers are u willing to give to the tc state in order to balance out the possibiliy of absence in the central goverment?.

the annan plan pretty much has this covered and I wouldnt change too much from this. the annan plan envisaged the central govt would be responsible for,
a. external relations-including defence
b.Relations with EU
c.central bank functions-including currency
d.Federal finances
e.Natural resources
f.Meterology, aviation, contintenal shelf.
g.Communications (postal, electronic)
h.Cypriot citizenship and immigration
i.Combating terrorism, and organised crime
j.Pardons and amenisties
k.Intellectual property and weights and measurements
l.Antiquities

I think the above list should be the limit of the central government role, with every other responsibility left to the states. Under this system the TC's would have a far greater power to determine their own affairs and power which is legitimised through agreements.

There will be complaints that they will not be in a position to govern a central government in their own right due to their smaller population but this is a fact of numbers, and the proposal is better and more workabe for Cyprus as a whole than the incomprehensible and overly complicated Annan plan which only leads to a dead end.

[Agios Amvrosios]

So how are the 20,000 Greeks going to be selected?

This is early 20th Century genocide/ethnic cleansing at its best. Bloodshed is guaranteed with this and the Annan Plan.

The dropping of a couple of atomic bombs on cyprus may result in more peace.