Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Come on people lets not get distracted by such rubbish. Concentrate on whats important and how we can make a difference to people's lives in the present and the short-term future.

I didn't know that having a long-term stategy was rubbish and that whats important is the shot term. Thanks for the enlightment.

However I don't see how what you propose would make peoples lives better even in the short term. Such thing might have some positive effects on a part of the population but it will have negative effects on all of us. Overall it will not make anything better, even in the short-term!

[tubegallery]

I'm not going to be drawn into your "long term" strategy and whether it is indeed rubbish or not. I'll let everyone else make their own mind up about that one....

But do tell me whats wrong with what I have proposed? And state the specific parts you dont like, that way your criticism is contructive and if possible improvements can be made.

[garbitsch]

Yes, lets leave it to our caring politicians, who care so much for us and not about how they can secure a wealthy future for their families!! We can trust the Turks 100% they love and care for us and if we let them rule our country 100% we will be so much better off................NOT!!!!!!

Nobody said Turks are going to rule you. Where the hell you came to such conclusion?

[bg_turk]

1000 years?

Sorry Piratis, I have overestimated these turkish barbarians. It seems their empire only lasted 500 years and not 1000 years. But in fact if you compute the rate at which the turkish empire has been shrinking for the last hundreds of years, and apply a linear regression to that rate, you can in fact interpolate along the line of best fit within a reasonable margin of error that Turkey's size will shrink by a factor of at least 3-4 in the next 500 hundred years. In fact with a scientific accuracy we may claim that Turkey will be reduced to a statelet around Ankara. You will not be able to get only North Cyprus back, you will in fact get all these lands that your ancestors once called their home. The Greeks, despite all difficulties throughout the centuries have persevered, and they will persever this time as well!

[Nikiforos]

I don't think the TC's will at this stage accept the total removal of Turkish troops, and also more importantly if one recalls the negotiaiting of the Annan plan last year the main problem was Turkey and its leaders both political and military stated that it was incomprehensible that Turkish troops would completely vacate the island, on a strategic point of view. So at this stage the total removal of these troops should not be on the drawing board. Perhaps post Turkish EU entry the conditions will change.

I believe that it is absolutely essentialthat any future plan specifically and in detail require the removal of all foreign troops (Greek and Turkish) from Cyprus on a strict timetable. The period for their removal should NOT coincide with the potential entry of Turkey to the EU but should be completed well before the anticipated Turkish accession. The TC and GC National Guard and militias should also be dismantled in accordance with this timetable. This should be overseen by a panel of international monitors.

Another essential point of any plan should be the removal of the British bases and the PROHIBITION of the establishment of any foreign bases on Cyprus, either by an individual country or by an international organization such as NATO or the EU.

[Nikiforos]

If ALL choose to stay then so be it. Lets not forget that if they all decided to go home there would not be much of a TC state to speak of, as large numbers of TC's left Cyprus post-1974. Sure that GC's will find this hard to accept, but when you look at the aim of this plan and thats the creation of a TC state, then you have to accept that the state should be functional in terms of population (NON GC), economically and will also feature a strong Turkish ethnic element.

The settlers MUST go. They are NOT Cypriots. Is your aim to create a TURKISH state in the north or a TURKISH-CYPRIOT state? Alowing the Turkish settlers to remain in Cyprus should serve as a strong warning to EU countries as to what to expect if they agree to eventually admit Turkey to the EU.

[Nikiforos]

Clearly the answer you are looking for isn't going to be provided for here. The RoC has already committed to a bi-zonal, bi-communal federal system and as such any attempt to somehow digress from this, through a complete 'right of return' or only giving the TC's a relatively small state in terms of square km's is completely underhanded and not in the spirit of co-operation or pro-solution.

You asked for peoples opinions, and in my opinion the TC's should be left with somewhere in the vicinty of 25% of the land. I think this is in line with previous (failed) agreements between the TC's and GC's.

Sure people are going to throw their arms in the air and say, hey they were only 18% of the population, and this and that, and the land they have is some of the best, but people take a step back. The land they will be getting is still some 12% less than they have now, and the land will belong the the TC state, but also to a United Cyprus, something which it does not now.

The amount of land to be returned to the GCs should be directly linked to how many GC refugess are allowed to return to their homes and properties in the north. If only 20,000 GC refugees are allowed to return home, the TC component should be no more than 20%. Under no circumstances should the GCs agree to the TC north being more than 23-24%.

[tubegallery]

The settlers MUST go. They are NOT Cypriots. Is your aim to create a TURKISH state in the north or a TURKISH-CYPRIOT state? Alowing the Turkish settlers to remain in Cyprus should serve as a strong warning to EU countries as to what to expect if they agree to eventually admit Turkey to the EU.

If all the settlers go, how many people will be left for the TC state? Will those small numbers remaining make it a viable state economically and will they not then be even more insecure due to their dramatically smaller numbers?

Then the GC will say hey, there's less than 100,000 (probably more like 50,000) TC's they should only get 15% of the land.....You can see where I'm going with this. As painful as it is, the settlers are now firmly entrenched in North Cyprus. Some of them have been there 10, 20, 30 years, their children born and raised in Cyprus, some have inter-married with the TC's. They have established business', homes, jobs, and the only life they know is in North Cyprus. They are the very fibre of any future TC state, and I dont think a TC state can survive without them, and what we all want is a functional and sustainable country and component states.

On the otherside of the coin this is a very bitter pill for the GC's to swallow. These people are only on the island due to Turkey's victory in the war of 1974. They live in the homes owned by GC's, they have changed the character of North Cyprus and strenghtened the Turkish identity in terms of numbers and also culture.

There has been an unemployment problem reported in the past, I can't verify these reports, but if true then it probably wouldn't take too much inducement to lure these dissatisfied people back to Turkey. But the bottom line is, I dont think they should be forcibly removed.

Your statement as to what my aim is, to create a Turkish state in the north or a Turkish Cypriot one, considering my proposal to leave the settlers as is, did make me stop and think twice about it. I can definately see where your coming from, but at the end of the day, the idea is to create a TC state. These people may be from Turkey, but they are now children of Cyprus, and in the future hopefully this Cypriot identity can be developed further.

Lets not forget there is a strong element on both sides that see themselves as just Greeks and Turks. This explains the abundance of the Greek flag in the RoC, much more than the Cypriot flag, and the abundance of the Turkish flag in the north, compared to the TRNC flag. And these people arn't extremists to any degree they are your typical GC and TC.....

Its the settler issue which is one of the BIG factors in any negotiated settlement and probably the one where we may see the most flexibility on the part of the TC's and Turkey. I dont expect them to vacate the island completely but its an area where some concession can probably be made.

[Nikiforos]

Tony I dont think the scenario you speak of here is realistic. The situation with Turkey's negotiations wont be easy, and there will be tough times ahead. But I do believe with the re-structure being planned for the EU in the coming years the great obstacle that Cyprus currently is for Turkey will be removed. There is already talk of the veto rights of countries being removed, talk of moving to a more majority based system, which will make smaller countries like Cyprus insignificant and countries like Turkey a lot more powerful.

Tubegallery, it is true that the EU might move to a more majority system. However, this will be fiercely opposed by many smaller nations--Austria, Greece and many others. The danger to Turkey's EU aspirations should also be clear. Most Europeans (citizens, NOT the craven politicians) will not agree to a system where the Turks are calling the shots based on having the largest population--one that is destined to continue to grow because of their culture. This fear played a significant role in the defeat of the EU Constitution in France and the Netherlands.

[tubegallery]

Nikiforos I know what your saying about the EU and whatever decisions they do make on their structure will be done with a lot of huffing and puffing. It wont be easy.

But the point of my posts about the EU is, that Cyprus shouldn't be waiting to see what the EU can do for it. It should be pro-active and making this solution happen on the best terms they can negotiate.

Standing back and waiting for the EU to draw concessions it may or may not get from Turkey is a defeatist strategy, speaks volume of how high highly the GC leaders trust their ability, and is a pathetic way to conduct the single most important issue to Cypriots.

On this issue of the Cyprus "problem" stuff the EU, get in the room with the TC's, Turkey and Greece, and hammer out an agreement which we can all live with, and do it on our terms, not the UN's, not the EU's. They dont have our (GC and TC) best interests at heart, only we can come up with the most suitable agreement, and not sell out to anyone else.