Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

I totally agree tubegallery and applaud you speaking up taking into account the realities of the situation we find ourselves in 2005. The issue is how we should be getting the 2 leaders back to the UN negotiaiting table and not let the whole issue just drift over the next 10 to 15 years so that GCs may and I emphasise may get what they want through EU leverage, this is not always a sucessful process as it can backfire, with joint give and take tactics eg Turkeys ports of TC ports, with the EU putting its weight on Southern Cyprus to accept such developments, dont forget normalisation works both ways.

[garbitsch]

Tube where are you from ?

[Piratis]

The end result will be an agreed settlement based on the Annan plan or the legalisation and recognition of the TRNC, make no mistake about this.

and make no mistake that sooner or later the foreign occupation will end and we will take back our land either the turks like it or not.

[tubegallery]

and make no mistake that sooner or later the foreign occupation will end and we will take back our land either the turks like it or not.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you over points like this. Changing your opinion on these matters is going to be a very hard process, not impossible but will take time.

The odds of Kyrenia ever being a Greek / GC city again are ten trillion to one. The foreign occupation may very well end some day and the GC's will get back SOME of their land, but this will only happen if they are willing to negotiate with the Turks / TC's and try to achieve the best outcome possible, within the current realities.

And those realities are a Turkish nation of approx 70 million on your doorstep, with military power which is far stronger than anyone in their region, a Turkish nation which maintains approx. 35,000 troops on a tiny Mediterranean island, and currently maintain an occupation in 37% over the former RoC. Besides military strength and population statistics the reality also is that Turkey is potenitally much more valuable economically to the powers that be and these powers can also gain a hell of a lot more leverage from having Turkey 'onside' rather than annoying them.

Now weigh this up with what Cyprus offers. A military force which is incompetent in face of the Turkish threat, a population of approx 700,000, it gave up two soverign bases long ago so there goes that leverage....hey why would these world powers want to rock the boat too much in order to secure what is just and fair, in returning to the GC's what is rightly theres???

Its easy to view the problem as between GC and TC but these two parties are merely pawns in a much larger game. And make no mistakes the leaders of these two peoples have only played to the expectations of the major powers. How can after 40years of endless talks, endless negotiations, never ending proposals and counter-proposals that they not come to some kind of conclusion and agreement? They leaders are pathetic, and the way they have manipulated the people on both sides of the fence is nothing short of disgraceful.

The GC's forever talk bravely about what actions they will take and how they will do it. Remeber the s-300 missiles there was lots of bravado and nationalistic rubbish spoken of, and what happened? An embarrassing back down. They get into the EU and have the power to veto a country which they are forever telling everyone is occupying their nation. What do they do? Nothing of significance. No veto, no demanding of further rights and obligations on Turkey's behalf, nothing at all. Austria of all countries puts up a much bigger obstacle. Probably the biggest moment in the past 40years and they dont put their demands forward.

Its an absolute disgrace and the leaders are pathetic. Now the people expect these leaders to head into discussions with the TC's. What kind of agreement can they reach and put forward when they are such weakly spined, gutless cowards? And dont even get me started on the TC and Turkish leaders. At least Talat offers some hope but the next few years will be his judge.

No wonder everyone has basically given up on them and let the current situation ride. The Cypriots are masters are blaming everyone but themselves. Some real leaders need to stand up and be counted, and take the brave and couragous decisions considering the realities and enter into a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation in which the concepts of bi-zonal and bi-communal are implemented, no matter how painful this may be. After all hasn't a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation been on the cards since somwhere around the 1977 mark? Its only been talked about for the past 28 years maybe they need a bit longer.....

Garbitsch in answer to your question I am born and raised in Australia to GC parents. My father was born and raised in Cyprus and is a refugee from the 1974 war, and my mother was born in Australia. My grandparents on that side of the family came to Australia in the late 1940's.

[Piratis]

Remember the Ottoman empire? What goes around comes around. We have 3500 years of history on this island. We will not sign any part of it away because somebody managed to keep it illegally for 3 decades.
When we think about our country we should think and plan about the long term.

If everybody had this looser mentality then the ones that ruled the world once they would rule it forever. If you don't fight for your rights you have no chance of gaining them. Therefore 1 in a trillion chance is better than no chance.

By the way, from which part of the occupied areas is your father? Were you already planning what you would do in Australia with the money you could potentially receive if the Annan plan was accepted?

Sorry, but Cyprus is more than personal property for sale. It is our island for 3500 years and thats not for sale.

[garbitsch]

Tubegallery, I appreciate you and your comments. I think you are being very realist in this issue, and I think you are right when you base your argument in a realistic way. I have read your proposal before, and I think more provisions can be put to meet some expectations of Greek Cypriots and this plan can be base for a solution. Your comment about the leaders are absolutely right and I believe both leaders are trying to take advantage of the current situation...

[Tony-4497]

Tubegallery

And those realities are a Turkish nation of approx 70 million ... currently maintain an occupation in 37% over the former RoC.

I think that your rationale is fundamentally flawed. Turkey is indeed a bigger nation with a bigger army. On this basis, Turkey stated for 30 years that the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974.

The ONLY reason Turkey is back at the negotiating table is because it is now Turkey that NEEDS a solution. Even Turkish politicians recognise that the single most important strategic objective in Turkey's history cannot be achieved without a solution in Cyprus. There has been a fundamental shift in bargaining power which you fail to recognise.

The Annan plan was a dirty trick played by the Anglo-Americans who hoped that most Greek-Cypriots would think along the same lines as you and allow Turkey to get out of the Cyprus mess "on the cheap", through violating the fundamental human rights of GCs, accepting the effects of the violent occupation and dissolving the RoC.

GCs have made it very clear they will NEVER accept anything like the Annan plan. The solution will be EITHER (A) a true federation with full right of return and unified economies, societies etc OR (B) an Annan-plan-type solution with the area of the TC state not exceeding 18-20% of Cyprus, which is more than both the TC population and land ownership percentages in 1974.

GC would be crazy to accept anything else i.e. legalise the effect of the invasion & occupation, allow Turkey in the EU, equally share power at all levels with an 18% minority and have lots of hassle and cost... all this for what??? the increase of their land by just 7%?? You must be joking!!

Unless Turkey accepts (A) or (B) above, the problem will never be solved and Turkey will never enter the EU. I believe that Papadopoulos's next step should be to state this to Turkey and the EU and explain that unless Turkey accepts this reasonable compromise, i.e. (A) or (B), Cyprus will block its entry due to the illegal violent occupation of 37% of its territory. Period.

[Viewpoint]

Tony-4497

The solution will be EITHER (A) a true federation with full right of return and unified economies, societies etc OR (B) an Annan-plan-type solution with the area of the TC state not exceeding 18-20% of Cyprus, which is more than both the TC population and land ownership percentages in 1974.

(A) Is it really possible??? do you mean a unified state? how will handle full right of return?

so only other option you have given us is

(B) In theory could be acceptable to many TCs accepted Annan 5 but the 18-20% land distribution should be assesed by independent international experts to confirm the exact percentage pre 1974 as there will be many disputes dating way back to the 40s 50s 60s to ownership etc

[Tony-4497]

(A) Is it really possible??? do you mean a unified state? how will handle full right of return?

No, I mean a true federation in which people are able to live, work, do business etc where they want, e.g. USA (or, in other words, EU acquis!).
TC may get to have a non-sovereign component state on say 25% of the land, with state officials being elected by only the TC community, but this should only be able to deal with internal governance issues and not issues such as foreign policy, immigration, security (e.g borders) etc etc. The strong central federal government should of course represent the communities on a basis that does not discriminate among citizens, i.e. 1 person 1 vote.

(B) In theory could be acceptable to many TCs accepted Annan 5 but the 18-20% land distribution should be assesed by independent international experts to confirm the exact percentage pre 1974 as there will be many disputes dating way back to the 40s 50s 60s to ownership etc

Possibly. But I don't think anyone disputes the population percentages. It is also well known that TC were generally poorer than GC even well before any trouble began - partly as they were having large families and hence depleting their per capita wealth. If I remember correctly, according to the British-run land registry the land ownership of TC in 1960 was around 12%. In any case, given the population, I think 20% would be an absolute maximum.

The percentage of land to be returned needs to be sufficient to make it worth all the trouble, risk etc of a solution, from the GC point of view. Otherwise, any plan will fail. In the past (short-sighted) GC politicians accepted something around 25% for TCs, but that was on the basis of a true federation (as above) and it was achieved under the indirect threat of war by Turkey.

Obviously, the more "sovereignty" the TC state wants, the less the land it will be able to have. In addition, because of the EU and the projected integration (e.g. EU army etc), GCs are now feeling increasingly secure and are less worried about Turkey doing another "peace operation", which makes them more demanding in negotiations.

At the same time, as time passes, Turkey's negotiating position becomes worse, as the stakes for her EU accession become bigger. Accordingly, the longer Turkey waits for solving the problem, the more concessions she will have to make. It is in her interest to make a serious offer to GC now and get it sorted.

If this does not happen, I can see a scenario in say 10 years when Turkey might be begging for ANY solution in order to get in the EU. Eventually, this may lead to Turkey withdrawing the troops, dissolving the "TRNC", handing back the stolen land and demanding that the 1960 agreements are adhered to.

[tubegallery]

If everybody had this looser mentality then the ones that ruled the world once they would rule it forever. If you don't fight for your rights you have no chance of gaining them. Therefore 1 in a trillion chance is better than no chance.

By the way, from which part of the occupied areas is your father? Were you already planning what you would do in Australia with the money you could potentially receive if the Annan plan was accepted?

Piratis, Piratis degenerating into a game of name calling and degrogatory comments is not something that I will do. The loser mentality you speak of, is quite the opposite. The position of the GC's are in now is a losing position. They lost the war, they lost 37% of their land, they lost access to some of the most economically beneficial areas of the island. I cant see anything winning in there or keeping this current position for another few thousand years until our time comes!!!!

The position I speak of is winning back at least 12% of the land for the GC's, which will mean right of return for large numbers of people, winning the right of return for a further 20,000 people to the TC state, winning the lifting of the isolation for our TC compatriots, winning the the set up of a functional central government, and winning a peaceful co-existence and economic prosperity. I sure know whats better in those two scenarios.

And in response to your slanderous accusation regarding money, this is no motivation or driving force. Those title deeds have long since been passed to my uncles and cousins who remain in Cyprus and they will be the ones to benefit should they either a) be allowed to return to that land, or b) get compensation for the land.