Cyprus-Forum.com

[tubegallery]

So how are the 20,000 Greeks going to be selected?

This is early 20th Century genocide/ethnic cleansing at its best. Bloodshed is guaranteed with this and the Annan Plan.

The dropping of a couple of atomic bombs on cyprus may result in more peace.

These are but minor details. In all likelihood there probably wont even be 20,000 GC's who even want to go and live in a TC state.

And if there are more, I'm sure there are at least a few bright minds in Cyprus who can work out a suitable solution. Otherwise it will be outsourced to a foreign party, who will undoubtedly stuff it up and the Cypriots (both TC and GC) can go on blaming everyone but themselves for the position they find themselves in.

[Kifeas]

So how are the 20,000 Greeks going to be selected?

This is early 20th Century genocide/ethnic cleansing at its best. Bloodshed is guaranteed with this and the Annan Plan.

The dropping of a couple of atomic bombs on cyprus may result in more peace.

These are but minor details. In all likelihood there probably wont even be 20,000 GC's who even want to go and live in a TC state.

And if there are more, I'm sure there are at least a few bright minds in Cyprus who can work out a suitable solution. Otherwise it will be outsourced to a foreign party, who will undoubtedly stuff it up and the Cypriots (both TC and GC) can go on blaming everyone but themselves for the position they find themselves in.

If only 20,000 GCs are to be allowed to return (i.e., only about 3% of the total of GCs and only about 2.4% of the total Cypriot population) then what percentage of territory should the TC State retain?

[tubegallery]

If only 20,000 GCs are to be allowed to return (i.e., only about 3% of the total of GCs and only about 2.4% of the total Cypriot population) then what percentage of territory should the TC State retain?

Clearly the answer you are looking for isn't going to be provided for here. The RoC has already committed to a bi-zonal, bi-communal federal system and as such any attempt to somehow digress from this, through a complete 'right of return' or only giving the TC's a relatively small state in terms of square km's is completely underhanded and not in the spirit of co-operation or pro-solution.

You asked for peoples opinions, and in my opinion the TC's should be left with somewhere in the vicinty of 25% of the land. I think this is in line with previous (failed) agreements between the TC's and GC's.

Sure people are going to throw their arms in the air and say, hey they were only 18% of the population, and this and that, and the land they have is some of the best, but people take a step back. The land they will be getting is still some 12% less than they have now, and the land will belong the the TC state, but also to a United Cyprus, something which it does not now.

On the other side of the coin, as I previously stated I believe those people who do not return to their land, should be compensated by the Turkish government. Such measures are only fair and balanced, and a great improvement on the Annan plan which envisaged the new Cyprus government compensating these people.

[Piratis]

a complete 'right of return' or only giving the TC's a relatively small state in terms of square km's is completely underhanded and not in the spirit of co-operation or pro-solution.

So according to you the spirit of co-operation and pro-solution is the violations of the human rights of 1000s of people and the gains of one community on the expense of the other? I don't see any co-operation spirit in this and it is definitely not a solution.

For me the spirit of co-operation is the one that people respect the human rights of others and they are trying to accommodate any fears the other side might have in ways that are not against human rights or fundamental principles such as democracy.

We are not pro a solution that will legalize the human rights violations of 1000s of people and will create two conflicting states instead of one united country. Such kind of "solution" would only be part of the problem.

[Piratis]

And another thing regarding "pro solution":

I much prefer to have a Cyprus problem were our rights our violated rather than a Cyprus "solution" were our rights are violated.

In the first case the violations of our rights are illegal, caused by a foreign army. We can seek justice in ECHR and elsewhere, and we can hope that our problem will be solved.

In the second case the same violations are now legal, caused by our own state. We can not seek justice anymore and the hope to solve something that it is considered by everybody else as already solved is much less.

[tubegallery]

And another thing regarding "pro solution":

I much prefer to have a Cyprus problem were our rights our violated rather than a Cyprus "solution" were our rights are violated.

In the first case the violations of our rights are illegal, caused by a foreign army. We can seek justice in ECHR and elsewhere, and we can hope that our problem will be solved.

Piratis your goals are noble and in a fair and just world where the playing field is even, where armies don't exist and where political influence, backstabbing and treason are not known then yes I completely understand what you are saying and agree with it.

But a look at the events post-1974 would indicate to every observer that the powers that have influence will not exert that influence on Turkey, and also will not exert any influence to help the RoC. To sit on the sidelines and talk about such noble goals and curse about violation of rights, will only make people bitter and twisted and not improve their situation in 100 years.

Sure there is the ECHR, and other mechanisms but these are insignificant. The reluctance of these institutions to implement anything meaningful should be a clear indication that the people of Cyprus cannot rely on it.

So the question is do you want to keep the current situation and continue being a victim, and have the moral high ground in this arguement, and forever whinge and complain about human rights.

Or would you rather be pro-solution and be willing to admit that hey things arn't going to be what they once were, but lets make the best of this situation and try make a bloody good country out of whats left of it?

I sure know which way I'd be running towards

[Piratis]

So the question is do you want to keep the current situation and continue being a victim, and have the moral high ground in this arguement, and forever whinge and complain about human rights.

Or would you rather be pro-solution and be willing to admit that hey things arn't going to be what they once were, but lets make the best of this situation and try make a bloody good country out of whats left of it?

With the two options you give you imply that with this kind of "solution" we will stop being victims, which is not the case. The violations of our human rights will continue, and this time they would be legal.

Along the same theory somebody could propose another simpler solution:
Forget about the occupied Cyprus and recognize "TRNC" (now the violations of our human rights will be legalized, so it is ok), and try to make a bloody good country of what country we are left with.
Problem "solved".

Furthermore personally I doubt that with a dysfunctional, undemocratic state that is based on racist discrimination that anything good can come out. Thats the recipe for even more problems and bloodshed.

[tubegallery]

[quote="Piratis]

Along the same theory somebody could propose another simpler solution:Forget about the occupied Cyprus and recognize "TRNC" (now the violations of our human rights will be legalized, so it is ok), and try to make a bloody good country of what country we are left with.
Problem "solved".

Well I think you've pretty much come to the meat of the situation. I think something along the lines of what I have brought up in this thread, which is a direct improvement on the Annan plan, will be the "solution" or the proposal you mentioned above that the TRNC will be recognised as it is today and there will be 2 separate countries on the island.

There is no escaping this, the EU, the UN, the ECHR, NATO or any other organisation or country is not going to give or other Cypriots who think along the same lines as you what you would like. The end result will be an agreed settlement based on the Annan plan or the legalisation and recognition of the TRNC, make no mistake about this.

As I mentioned earlier the rest of the world has chosen a deliberate path since 1974, or more likley before that date, and the GC view, which maybe something they give lip service too through endless UN resoltions, they have not taken any concrete action either for Cyprus or against Turkey to rectify the situation. And if one looks at the developments of the past 2 years in particular it is plainly clear the Turks and TC's are getting more and more of their requests met.

This situation will continue until either a settlement based on the Annan plan is approved or shoved on the people, or the TRNC is given legitimacy by the powers that be.

These are the only two choices, and anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves and their followers. Situations change, countries changes the political landscape changes and in this case it has all changed against the GC's.

They need to realise this and make the Annan plan as workable and equitable as possible while still keeping the TC's on side, and then getting about rebuilding the country as a whole.

[Alexis]

There is no escaping this, the EU, the UN, the ECHR, NATO or any other organisation or country is not going to give or other Cypriots who think along the same lines as you what you would like. The end result will be an agreed settlement based on the Annan plan or the legalisation and recognition of the TRNC, make no mistake about this.

As I mentioned earlier the rest of the world has chosen a deliberate path since 1974, or more likley before that date, and the GC view, which maybe something they give lip service too through endless UN resoltions, they have not taken any concrete action either for Cyprus or against Turkey to rectify the situation. And if one looks at the developments of the past 2 years in particular it is plainly clear the Turks and TC's are getting more and more of their requests met.

The path taken by the rest of the world is certainly a deliberate one. The rest of the world has deliberately stopped short of recognising the TRNC for 30 years, but at the same time has not taken any solid steps to accomodate Greek Cypriot concerns. This is for a reason. Do not be so sure that they will not be happy to let the situation go on like this for another 30 years. Perhaps this will finally result in some sort of recognition of the TRNC but I really do doubt it can remain in its current form for this to happen. The international community will be quite happy to sit on the fence with regards Cyprus for eternity so long as things remain relatively peaceful (as they have done for the last 30 years).
The rest of the world is able to see both sides of the coin. They are not naive enough to forget the suffering of the TCs in the 1960s, but they also view the invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus by Turkey as a crime. This is why Turkey's accession to the EU is so important. For once it provides a means by which some kind of resolution to the problem can be sought. Even Turkey will not want to let an issue as small as Cyprus stop it's accession to the EU.

[tubegallery]

Alexis, I know what your saying and I think your pretty spot on with how everyone has let deliberately let the Cyprus 'problem' drift on for the past 30 years.

But for the near future 5 - 10years, with Turkey currently undergoing EU talks and with the UN's view based on the Annan plan, it is clear that any agreement will be somehow based on these principles and foundations, and the alternative to a negotiated settlement is leaving the current situation as is.

While this may seem ok in the sense that the TRNC has no legitimacy in the eyes of the world this is quickly changing, think the upgrading of its status in the eyes of the EU with the promises that were made to it after the referendum but only blocked by Cyprus and Greece, the upgrade of its status at the OIC, the recent direct flights from Azerbajian and the very real threat of that country officially recognising the TRNC in the very near future. It is clear the TC's have gained an enormous amount of traction in the last 2 years (post Denktash's involvement in negotiations) and this looks like continuing until either there is a negotiated settlement on Cyprus between the GC's and the TC's based on the Annan plan, or in the failure of this the TRNC's status is upgraded.

Whether its status is upgraded to official nation or something else I dont think it really matters, as the opportunity for a United Cyprus will be well and truly buried by that stage.

Personally I think were just about at that stage now, and its going to take a huge effort to turn things around. With the GC's seemingly unable to even discuss the Annan plan, even with some of the improvements I outlined at the start of this thread judging by some peoples reactions, and with the TC's now clearly sensing the tide is turning in their favour and that some level of official recognition and lifting of the isolation is seemingly in their grasp its going to take a few great leaders of men to overcome this problem.

Those few great men haven't been seen on either side of the Cypriot fence for a few decades now.

Anyway these discussions digress from the original point of this thread and further discussion of these matters should be left to another thread and another time.