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[Get Real!]

According to Homer the Trojans were definitely Greeks simply because the worshipped the Olympian Gods.

Hittites worshipped different Gods. From wikipedia...

Hittite religion and mythology were heavily influenced by their Hattic, Mesopotamian, and Hurrian counterparts. In earlier times, Indo-European elements may still be clearly discerned.

"Storm gods" were prominent in the Hittite pantheon. Tarhunt (Hurrian's Teshub) was referred to as 'The Conqueror', 'The king of Kummiya', 'King of Heaven', 'Lord of the land of Hatti'. He was chief among the gods and his symbol is the bull. As Teshub he was depicted as a bearded man astride two mountains and bearing a club. He was the god of battle and victory, especially when the conflict involved a foreign power.[11] Teshub was also known for his conflict with the serpent Illuyanka.

Also Paris' real name was Alexander, which is also Greek.

You need to DNA test one of his stools and if it’s become a baximadi then he’s probably Greek!

[kimon07]

According to Homer the Trojans were definitely Greeks simply because the worshipped the Olympian Gods..........Also Paris' real name was Alexander, which is also Greek.

Absolutely correct observations. And all the Gods took sides, some of them with the Greeks and some with the Trojans. They would not bother to side with the Trojans if they were not Greek since non Greek nations did not make donations or contributions or sacrifices to them. Right? I will come back with the genealogy of the Trojans as given by Homer and as deriving from superb dialogues between Greek and Trojan nobles (Achilles/Priam, Diomedes/Glaucus).

And as for Alex-andros. Consisting of two Greek words and meaning he who prevails against other men- confronts men- suppresses or repulses men (like alexisferon - alexikeravnon-alexinaimion).

[supporttheunderdog]

Homer is not a relaible historical source, assuming there was a single person who was resposible for the poems. One has to remember that the Homeric texts were based on an oral tradition of recited poetry handed down through a then illiterate society and first transcribed into written form in about 800 BC, probbaly 450 years after the allged events. There were probbaly a number of versions which apparent;y began to be edited into a single version from about 450BC.

The prospect is that most of the detail of EG the alleged debates, duels, etc has been made up, while everything else such as gods and names would be converted to the Greek equivalent to make the stories both exiting and comprehensible to the Audience. Bearing in the gods do not exist except as human invention then any description of the participation of the gods must be pure fiction.

The Archeological evidence of inscriptions however very clearly suggests the people of the place thought to be Troy were non-Greek Willusans.

[kimon07]

Homer is not a relaible historical source, assuming there was a single person who was resposible for the poems.

Homer has proved absolutely accurate and reliable in respect to the names of the participants, their kingdoms and their descent.
He also included accurate astronomical and geological observations in the Iliad.

One has to remember that the Homeric texts were based on an oral tradition of recited poetry handed down through a then illiterate society and first transcribed into written form in about 800 BC, probably 450 years after the alleged events.

It is at least naive to believe that people who could build up an army of about 100000, and organize an expedition with 1180 ships across the Aegean and then conduct a war for 10 years in foreign lands were illiterate. Just think of the logistics. (I will return to the issue of writing later).

Homer's Iliad covers, as you know just the last year of the war. Prior to it were the "CYPRIA EPOI" which described the preparations and the first nine years of the war. And then came the "Ethiopica" which covered the return of the army and the kings and their fates afterwards. Both of these were lost but fragments are found in the works of later greek authors such as Aeschylus and others.

The prospect is that most of the detail of EG the alleged debates, duels, etc has been made up, while everything else such as gods and names would be converted to the Greek equivalent to make the stories both exiting and comprehensible to the Audience. Bearing in the gods do not exist except as human invention then any description of the participation of the gods must be pure fiction.

Its self understood that the alleged intervention of the gods in favour one part or the other is fiction. Only Homer would not have the Gods of the Greeks helping barbarians. Coming to the names: The very detailed genealogy of the Trojan nobles included in the Iliad can not be simple imagination of .....illiterate people and it could not be memorised and remmbered for so many centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus

The Archeological evidence of inscriptions however very clearly suggests the people of the place thought to be Troy were non-Greek Willusans.

In chapter 6 Homer describes how Belerefon left Argos and went to Lycia two generations prior to the war, carying a written message to the king of Lycia.

Dialogue between Diomedes-Glaucus (son of Hippolochus) of Lycia

http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad6.htm

Glaucus, fine son of Hippolochus, replied:
“Son of Tydeus, great-hearted Diomedes,
………..if you wish to learn about my family, [150]
so you’re familiar with my lineage,
well, many people know the details.
There is a city in a part of Argos,
land where horses breed—it’s called Ephyra. 190
There Sisyphus lived….. He had a son,
Glaucus, father of handsome Bellerophon.
…………………………………..
Proetus……sent Bellerophon to Lycia,
with a lethal message, coded symbols
written on a folded tablet. These told
many lies about Bellerophon.*
…………….

The fact that the names of the Trojans on later found foreign scripts in the area appear in their foreign version, does not mean that the foreign version is the original one but that the foreigners spelled them in their scripts the way they could, as they did with the cities of the Troad and not the other way around (As the illiterate Ottomans turned Constantinople to Istanbul, Ephesus to Efes, Hippodrome to Bodrum etc).

I am not saying that all those who fought on the side of the Trojans were Greek. No. But the nobility of Troy and of the major allies i.e., Dardania, Cylicia and Lycia were. To bring an example of recent history, I believe that the relation of the Greek troops to the Trojans and their allies was not much different than the relation of the English troops to the Americans during the war of their independence and the relation of the Spanish troops to the Mexicans during their war of their independence. The nobility and the ruling classes of America and of Mexico were English and Spanish respectively, but there were also indigenous and half breeds and other nationalities between the ranks of the Mexicans and of the Americans.

[kimon07]

Linear B
Is a syllabic script that was used for writing Mycenaean Greek, an early form of Greek. The script pre-dated the Greek alphabet by several centuries. A recent finding of the oldest Mycenaean writing dates to about 1450 BC.[1] Linear B, found mainly in the palace archives at Knossos, Cydonia,[2] Pylos, Thebes and Mycenae,[3] disappeared with the fall of Mycenaean civilization. The succeeding period, known as the Greek Dark Ages, provides no evidence of the use of such writing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

So, as seen above the Greeks DID have a written language for at least 100 years prior to the Trojan expedition.

[kimon07]

Cyprus provides additional evidence of the credibility of Homer. The founder of Salamis of Cyprus was no other than the Homeric Hero Tefkros, brother of Ajax, both sons of the then king of Salamis of Greece. Tefkros was not accpted home by his father who held him responsible for the death of Ajax. Tefkros then sailed with his ships and men to Cyprus (these were in the "Ethiopica Epoi").

Homer also reports about the Cypriot kings Paphos and his son Kinyras, founder of the city of Paphos. According to Homer, the armour of Agamemnon was a present of Kinyras sent to him when envoys came to ask him for ships and troops for the expedition. Kinyras promised 40 ships but finally sent one ship and 39 replicas. Promise kept.
.

[supporttheunderdog]

ah the foundation myths.

Now the Trojan war probably took place in 1250 BC or so, but Salamis was not founded until about 1100 BC or so, a gap of 150 years - it was a replacement for the Ancient city of Enkomi, which long predated the Trojan war better situated on the river for trade, as due to silting the hatrbour at Enkomi became useless. Likewise at PaleaoPaphos there was an existing settlment and the earaly signes of Greek domination are agin 150 years or so later on. Now we are told some of these Greek guys had trouble getting home (Odessseus for example) but 150 years?

It was convenient for the new kings to claim descent from heros as that often also gave the descent from gods, and a quasi legitimacy. It was however the original lie about the prcess of Hellensation.

[kimon07]

ah the foundation myths.

Now the Trojan war probably took place in 1250 BC or so, but Salamis was not founded until about 1100 BC or so, a gap of 150 years - it was a replacement for the Ancient city of Enkomi, which long predated the Trojan war better situated on the river for trade, as due to silting the harbour at Enkomi became useless. Likewise at PaleaoPaphos there was an existing settlement and the early signs of Greek domination are again 150 years or so later on. Now we are told some of these Greek guys had trouble getting home (Odessseus for example) but 150 years?

It was convenient for the new kings to claim descent from heroes as that often also gave the descent from gods, and a quasi legitimacy. It was however the original lie about the process of Hellensation.

1250 "or so", 1100 "or so". Maybe we should be more precise with dating?

And what about linear B and A previous to that? And what about the submerged city of Pavlopetri which was older than the Trojan War? Could illiterate people, people who could not master mathematics and statics and engineering build such a city which looks like it was more "modern" and more "adequate" than even modern day villages? NO!

And again. How could more than one hundred thousand illiterates from all parts of mainland and island Greece be summoned up, mobilized, get organized and set out to an expedition without a sophisticated system of governance and communication and record keeping etc?

I think the biggest myths about the Trojan War are the "myths" that it didn't take place and that the Greeks did not have writing at the time.

[supporttheunderdog]

ah the foundation myths.

Now the Trojan war probably took place in 1250 BC or so, but Salamis was not founded until about 1100 BC or so, a gap of 150 years - it was a replacement for the Ancient city of Enkomi, which long predated the Trojan war better situated on the river for trade, as due to silting the harbour at Enkomi became useless. Likewise at PaleaoPaphos there was an existing settlement and the early signs of Greek domination are again 150 years or so later on. Now we are told some of these Greek guys had trouble getting home (Odessseus for example) but 150 years?

It was convenient for the new kings to claim descent from heroes as that often also gave the descent from gods, and a quasi legitimacy. It was however the original lie about the process of Hellensation.

1250 "or so", 1100 "or so". Maybe we should be more precise with dating?

. And what about linear B and A previous to that? And what about the submerged city of Pavlopetri which was older than the Trojan War? Could illiterate people, people who could not master mathematics and statics and engineering build such a city which looks like it was more "modern" and more "adequate" than even modern day villages? NO!

And again. How could more than one hundred thousand illiterates from all parts of mainland and island Greece be summoned up, mobilized, get organized and set out to an expedition without a sophisticated system of governance and communication and record keeping etc?

I think the biggest myths about the Trojan War are the "myths" that it didn't take place and that the Greeks did not have writing at the time.

These dates are as good as one can get from all forms of ananlysis including radio-carbon dating, examination of pottery fragements, etc. It is otherwise clear that the city widely thought to be Troy was destroyed in a probably violent event in about 1250BC, though exactly who destroyed it is not known, though there is some reference to a possible Myceanaen/Hittite dispute in some correspondence of the time, which might be a reference to the war but otherwise only the Homeric Stories (and there are questions about the historicity of Homer and/or his/her authourship) contain the detail.

Pavlopetri is probbaly so old that in origin it was pre-Greek and was possubly a Minoan Outpost, but was later taken over by the Mycenaeans, just as they took over Crete iteself. (there is nothing reconiseably Greek about what is now Greece until about 2000BC with the arrival of some indo-europeans who brought the indo-european language that became Greek, along with many of the male gods).

As to Linear A, this was a written representation of the Non-Greek Ancient Cretan Minoan language - certainly used by a clerical group for stock-keeping and transactional records, possibly exclusively so bearing in mind little evidence exists it was used for general written use, such as story telling or drama. Linear B was a later adapation of Linear A (from about 1400 BC onwards) which the previously probabaly illiterate Achaean/Aegean early Greek speakers used to represent the Greek language and again the available evidence tends to suggest it was used by a clerical class within the then palace based societies for stock-keeping and transasctional records. All the evidence suggests that Linear A and B just vanished when those societies vanished. It is possible Linear A and B had a wider use for eg drama or general correspndence use but the artefacts containing that did not survive. The earliest attested use of the Greek Alphabet is so far about 750BC, which is probbaly a 500 year gap from the Trojan War, and about 350 years from the apparent collapse of the Mycenaean civilisation.

Significantly Linear B which was the written text of the so called Mycenaean Civilisation ( I am questioning the use of the word Mycenaean as the label not the civilisation) does not turn up in Cyprus so the Greek speakers who began to dominate parts of Cyprus after about 1100 BC did not seem to have brought this script. They adopted/adapted the local script which suggest that they were not the Mycenaeans or that even if they were they were illiterate. Note: illiterate does not meen unintelligent.

As it is I do not think there was much use of maths or statistics in the construction of most ancient structures, which were probabaly built mostly by eye and experience, rather than calculation: ie if looks good and stays up let's repeat the design.They almost scertainly had some standardised measures and had found simple ways to make right angles etc (the Ancient Egyptians used a 3-4-5 triangle)

However while relying on theHomeric tales which were probbaly passed by purely verbal means (and embellished to make them attractive entertainment) you then seem discount the power of the spoken word as a means of running a country and passing on knowledge in eg building, or in organising a body of men.

Ask your self this: Could an illiterate people, people who could not master mathematics and statics and engineering build a structure n the period up to about 1600BC which took many thousands of man hours, and which could be used to predict lunar and solar eclipses? .

[denizaksulu]

Proving once again that he is in fact full of methane - and naturally combustible.

He is a jackass.