Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

So GR! would argue that Cyprus never existed before 1960.

The beauty of Cyprus over Greece is that it’s an island so her name and outline were well defined from the very onset.

Greece however was just a small southern extension of the European landmass so borders were either non existent or frequently modified.

By extension, you are now saying that each individual Greek island was equally "defined from the very onset" (onset of what?). See, this is where you don't give the ancients enough credit. They weren't stupid or clueless as to their boundaries and territories. The Greeks knew very well were was "Greek" (including the islands like Cyprus or Rhodes or Crete, or Lesbos, or Ithaca etc) and where was not Greek (ie Barbarian). They didn't sit around waiting for >3,000 years until the "Germans" or "British" could tell them their borders.

[kimon07]

In reality modern Greece is an irrelevance when compared to ancient Greece.

True. Like all other countries in the world.

Utter rubbish.

Classical antiquity ended with the murder of Hypatia in AD415 by Greek Christians.

The world was then in a period known as The Dark Ages for 1000 years until the European Age of Elightenment, where ideas from classical antiquity were reintroduced and expanded on, a period which is still on-going.

Reintroduced through Venice by the Greeks who were fleeing from Byzantine territories which were falling to the Ottomans and through Spain by the Arabs who studied intensively and adopted extensively Greek sciences and medicine and mathematics and everything else. So, as Europeans, we are all indebted to the Byzantine Greeks and to the Arabs for that.

by the Arabs through Spain.

Not a single mention of Greeks or Arabs here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_enlightenment

You must know where to look.

Islam's Contribution To Europe's Renaissance

HRH, The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West
http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html


The Arab Influence on the Italian Renaissance

In 800 this was by no means an easy task. Much classical Greek writing had not survived the centuries of neglect by Christians inimical to "pagan" thought. As early as the year 500, the great library at Alexandria was a ruin and, a few years later, Justinian closed Plato's Academy in Athens because it was a hotbed of pagan (non-Christian) philosophy. Arab scholars, then, translated into Arabic the few Greek texts that remained, or translated from languages into which the Greek originals had previously been translated by scholars who had left Greece for parts east. These were mainly exiled Nestorian Christians from Greece, and Classical Greek scholars from Plato's academy who had fled to Persia, where they founded a great center of learning at Jundishapur (before the coming of Islam) and translated much of their material into Aramaic, the lingua franca of the Middle East at the time. After Baghdad, the Arabs later started equally fine centers of scholarship in Spain at Cordoba and Toledo.

Transmission of this glorious knowledge from the Muslim world into Italy happened primarily through Spain and Sicily; that is, the great courts of learning in Cordoba and the pre-Crusades court of Norman Sicily in the 12th century. It is in Sicily, particularly, that Norman tolerance provided for the coexistence of Byzantine Greek, Italian Christian, and Arab scholars. It was, perhaps, the last great period of human tolerance in European history.http://ac-support.europe.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/naples/arabinf.html

Muslim Spain and European Culture

Dean Derhak

The intellectual plunder of Toledo brought the scholars of northern Europe like moths to a candle. The Christians set up a giant translating program in Toledo. Using the Jews as interpreters, they translated the Arabic books into Latin. These books included "most of the major works of Greek science and philosophy... along with many original Arab works of scholarship." (Digest, p. 622)
http://www.sunnah.org/history/moors.htm

more:
http://www.google.gr/search?sourceid=na ... enaissance

and:
http://www.google.gr/search?sourceid=na ... 35&bih=625

[kimon07]

This is what took Europe out of the Dark Ages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance (lots about Greeks there )

extract from above link:

There is a consensus that the Renaissance began in Florence, Italy, in the 14th century.[4] Various theories have been proposed to account for its origins and characteristics, focusing on a variety of factors including the social and civic peculiarities of Florence at the time; its political structure; the patronage of its dominant family, the Medici;[5][6] and the migration of Greek scholars and texts to Italy following the Fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.[7][8][9]

[kimon07]

Serious question.

On what basis do Greeks have such an inflated sense of their relative importance in the scheme of things?.......

Serious answer...

Well to pick up on the "currently" bit Hyder and as far as the Greek Wannabess here on CF go... the picture they give is one the Ugliest of Nationalism, not too different from the rampant and unquestioning "Turkiye is Best" rubbish flag-waving nationalism that we see too much much of in Turkey.
Most of the Good People of Greece would be very embarrassed to read the comments of these people who are trying soooooo hard to be sooooooo Greek.

The truth is that we “Greek Wannabes” never start threads or topics about the “Greek Supremacy” and such. On the contrary, there are some forum members who feel its their duty to be systematically attacking Greece and the Greeks even in threads that are totally irrelevant, not to mention the fact that some of them start chains of threads on anti Greek / racist topics. Similar to the one you started. In such cases, i.e., when challenged and provoked, we offer the appropriate responses as you had the opportunity to experience in your first (????) visit here. Oh and, we Greek Wannabes always substantiate our points and opinions with references to sources and links. For instance, it would ad to your credibility if you would tell on which sources you base your opinion about the supremacy of the Chinese civilisation (always in relation to the influence on the modern European civilisation).

And the “Good People of Greece” can talk for themselves I am sure. What do you think Baruti?

These people have even sunk soooo looooow, have gone so far in their fanatical extremeness, as to feel it a "duty" to run down the Games in several threads..

,

How very unfair! Which threads? What venomous and bitter personal remarks have we “Wannabes” made? Take me for instance. I asked questions and submitted comments and statements made by Germans, Americans and British commentators and critics. Where did any one see any personal negative comments of mine?

each trying to out-do the other in their bitter and venomous hatred of the Universality of the Games.

On the contrary. What we criticize is the games having turned into the “Biggest Corporate Scam”…..just to use your own words Bill.
Here is your exact venomus opening thread post bill:

!!!!!!!...12 Days To Go...!!!!!!
by bill cobbett » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:59 pm
Just...

12 Days To Go

'til the Biggest Corporate Scam going, starts in London.

Fortunately, London is a sooooo much bigger than the Olympics... most Londoners won't notice the Games are on.
cyprus38398.html

How very inconsistent of you Bill.

Now just think what the Real Liberally Enlightened Greeks of modern-day Greece would make of that!!!!

If you refer to Tsipras and his likes you are right. They will be appalled.
But who cares. They represent the sentiments of only 3% of the Greek people (what they got in the elections has nothing to do with their real influence on the national feelings of vast majority of the Greeks).

So don't take what these idiots say too seriously Hyder.

We couldn’t care less if you would take us seriously or not Hyder. But be sure that we shall answer as best as we can if you insult us or doubt us. With proof and evidences.

[Me Ed]

You are missing the central point though.

The Greeks were in possession of these manuscripts, or at least those that survived after Greek Christians destroyed the Library at Alexandria and murdered Hypatia, and did nothing with them for centuries opting for Christianity

This knowledge was only acted on when it came to the attention of the Italians which started the renaissance and age of enlightenment.

Its often speculated that because the Greeks opted to sit on this wisdom for centuries after they were Christianised, this delayed human progress for about a thousand years.

So for modern Greeks to attempt to glean some credit for this is pretty rich as conceptually they had nothing to do with the renaissance and age of enlightenment other than act as delivery men for these precious manuscripts to the forward thinking Europeans who acted on the information contained in them.

[kimon07]

You are missing the central point though.

The Greeks were in possession of these manuscripts, or at least those that survived after Greek Christians destroyed the Library at Alexandria and murdered Hypatia, and did nothing with them for centuries opting for Christianity

This knowledge was only acted on when it came to the attention of the Italians which started the renaissance and age of enlightenment.

Its often speculated that because the Greeks opted to sit on this wisdom for centuries after they were Christianised, this delayed human progress for about a thousand years.

So for modern Greeks to attempt to glean some credit for this is pretty rich as conceptually they had nothing to do with the renaissance and age of enlightenment other than act as delivery men for these precious manuscripts to the forward thinking Europeans who acted on the information contained in them.

Forward thinking Europeans eh. How come they remained in the dark for 1000 years if they were so forward thinking? Why did they have to wait all that long for the Greeks and the Arabs to bring along the knowledge once again to Western Europe when they already had copies of it in Roman texts? Jesus. Forward thinking Europeans indeed.

[kimon07]

You are missing the central point though.

Oh and.... any links to the ..."central point"?

[kimon07]

Its often speculated that because the Greeks opted to sit on this wisdom for centuries after they were Christianised, this delayed human progress for about a thousand years..........forward thinking Europeans who acted on the information contained in them.

Forward thinking Europeans my foot. They would still be in dark ignorance hadn't the Ottomans taken Byzantium:

Greek scholars in the Renaissance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The migration of Byzantine scholars and other émigrés from southern Italy and Byzantium during the decline of the Byzantine Empire (1203–1453) and mainly after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 until the 16th century, is considered by some scholars as key to the revival of Greek and Roman studies and subsequently in the development of the Renaissance humanism[4] and science. These emigres were grammarians, humanists, poets, writers, printers, lecturers, musicians, astronomers, architects, academics, artists, scribes, philosophers, scientists, politicians and theologians.[5] They brought to Western Europe the far greater preserved and accumulated knowledge of their own (Greek) civilization.
Their main role within the Renaissance humanism was the teaching of the Greek language to their western counterparts in universities or privately together with the spread of ancient texts. Their forerunners were the southern Italians Barlaam of Calabria (Bernardo Massari) and Leonzio Pilato, whose impact on the very first Renaissance humanists was indisputable.[6]
Read more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scho ... enaissance

Byzantine science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science

Why Byzantine Civilization is Important

Byzantine civilization is important because without it the modern Western world would not exist. Byzantium preserved and protected the very foundations of Western civilization, and it remains every bit as important as the ancient empires of classical Greece and Rome to civilization as we know it.

http://www.byzantiumnovum.org/byzantium_important.htm

Byzantine Greeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_ ... perception

I suppose you will now have the courtesy of guiding us through your sources? Not that we don't respect your authenticity but some additional sources would make your claims more credible.

[Me Ed]

I can't provide links because you can't prove a negative.

Therefore its impossible to demonstrate that the Greeks didn't achieve much during the Byzantine period, and the Why Byzantine Civilization is Important link you have provided doesn't cite any sources or any specifics as to the achievements, but says that the Greeks only preserved the ancient manuscripts.

The onus is on you to prove that the Greeks did indeed make many world changing innovations during this period, because all the links you have provided from Wikipedia only demonstrate that the world changing innovations only took place when the forward thinking Europeans picked up these manuscripts:

There is a consensus that the Renaissance began in Florence, Italy, in the 14th century.[4] Various theories have been proposed to account for its origins and characteristics, focusing on a variety of factors including the social and civic peculiarities of Florence at the time; its political structure; the patronage of its dominant family, the Medici;[5][6] and the migration of Greek scholars and texts to Italy following the Fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.[7][8][9]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennaisance

[kimon07]

I can't provide links because you can't prove a negative.

Therefore, you go by your own unsubstantiated beliefs (or illusions or what you want to believe). Thank you for admitting it.