Cyprus-Forum.com

[Me Ed]

VP, you seem give the impression that you think that the TCs and GCs will be some kind of opposition in a unified Cyprus. This is not the basis of a partnership.

On a governmental level under a federation this simply wont be the case.

In fact and by your own admission, the effect of being in the EU has already seen the TCs get services, specifically medical services where you have argued that the only reason the RoC provides these services is because they are in the EU.

So in effect you have answered your own argument when it comes to the checks and balances provided by the EU.

That is not exactly my claim, which is the GCs are forced to provide these facilities to the citizens it claims to represent as it would lose recognition/benefit rights and we would be recognized overnight meaning the advantages far out weight the disadvantages or knowing the GCs they would have done away with these facilities a very long time ago.

Whilst we can debate the RoCs motives, that aside, surley you can now see that if you believe RoC is somehow forced to provide TCs these services or would have done away with them a long time ago, then the checks and balances you seek already exist as they are already inherent in it's membership within the EU - especially whilst part of its territory is currently occupied.

This is where we see it differently the GC "RoC" only brings about it duties towards the TCs because it is forced to doso, the loss has to be far greater than any cost currently paid to provide a few facilities to the TCs. Your in effect saying that EU would also force them to do the right and that if you have any complaints about how the majority being the GCs are running the country and your lives go to the EU, I have explained before they are hardly geared to solving problems or forcing memeber states to treat people equally eg Muslims of Greece??? they are as effective as skin cream to a rotting corpse.

No VP, the RoC is not forced to do anything, but chooses not to discriminate against anyone.

If EU membership for Turkey forces Turkey to normalise relations with its neighbours and provide improved minority rights for the Kurds, surley this is a force for good?

[Viewpoint]

Ill try and explain it more clearly if the GCs do not provide the facilities they stand to lose a great deal possible recognition of the TRNC is this a good or bad forcing of fulfilling ones duties? I am 100% certain that if they were given the opportunity ot opt out they would do it in an instant.

Do we have to force the GC "RoC" to provide duties towards all its citizens via the EU? the important issue is the effectiveness of the EU in acting swiftly and early if forcing the GCs to do what they should be doing anyway.... you are asking us to take a leap of faith without a safety net.

[Get Real!]

Ill try and explain it more clearly if the GCs do not provide the facilities they stand to lose a great deal possible recognition of the TRNC is this a good or bad forcing of fulfilling ones duties? I am 100% certain that if they were given the opportunity ot opt out they would do it in an instant.

Do we have to force the GC "RoC" to provide duties towards all its citizens via the EU? the important issue is the effectiveness of the EU in acting swiftly and early if forcing the GCs to do what they should be doing anyway.... you are asking us to take a leap of faith without a safety net.

Someone is begging pretty bad here…

[Viewpoint]

Ill try and explain it more clearly if the GCs do not provide the facilities they stand to lose a great deal possible recognition of the TRNC is this a good or bad forcing of fulfilling ones duties? I am 100% certain that if they were given the opportunity ot opt out they would do it in an instant.

Do we have to force the GC "RoC" to provide duties towards all its citizens via the EU? the important issue is the effectiveness of the EU in acting swiftly and early if forcing the GCs to do what they should be doing anyway.... you are asking us to take a leap of faith without a safety net.

Someone is begging pretty bad here…

If you cant tell the difference between begging and concern you have a problem seek help.

[repulsewarrior]

"The Federal government will be comprised according to the ratio of population of the two ethnic groups" eg 8GCs and 2TCs majority vote system? how will we have impact when the balance is firmly in the GCs favor? There has to be checks and balances to make sure we are not swept to one side or we will just return to the problems of the past.

...first of all, in any democracy, it is the minorities which hold the balance of power.

...secondly, we can assume that all people act in a manner which best serves their interest. therefore, if Greeks have an identity as Persons, they are free to recognise that they are like others equals, and as Individuals this will be reflected in a concern for Cyprus.

...thirdly, i propose at the Federal level that every voter can elect their Turkish Cypriot representative, and their Greek Cypriot representative, from seperate slates. it guarantees in an Upper House with an equal number of seat for both, that Parties will stick to the issues, Nationalism will not win them a majority of seats. a third slate for an Independent representative for a Lower House, assures all Citizens that the representation is by population whichever way the demographics of the island evolves.

...you really should read my manifesto.

[wyoming cowboy]

We would have to work closely with GCs, we would be included in all EU and world issues, we would have one international identity and recognition, we would trade directly from our own state, tourism would take off due to direct flights, TCs would return from abroad, we could take in Russian money like yourselves, we could ask for bailouts from the EU, my mail would come direct to my address etc etc. Is that enough?

You arent far off the mark actually,
You can add this...
The federal government will have port of entry jurisdiction,jurisdiction over the Federal police,build interstate roads, levy a tax on all citizens of Cyprus...collect taxes and build interstate roads. The Federal Supreme court will overrule both constituent states, in its decisions appeal of last resort to the Federal Supreme court. Much like the system here in the usa...The Federal government will be comprised according to the ratio of population of the two ethnic groups.....committies for eu and foreign affairs will be represented by both ethnic groups...

As for banks, all banks in the Eu will probably come under the umbrella of the Central bank of Europe, who will regulate them....

Do you see any problems with the above?

"The Federal government will be comprised according to the ratio of population of the two ethnic groups" eg 8GCs and 2TCs majority vote system? how will we have impact when the balance is firmly in the GCs favor? There has to be checks and balances to make sure we are not swept to one side or we will just return to the problems of the past.

The checks and balances that you want are basically useless Vp...In a federation with two constituent states and a strong federal government, the Tc will be able to run their affairs up to a point.....what you seem to want with checks and balances is to restrict the federal government of its duties

[wyoming cowboy]

We would have to work closely with GCs, we would be included in all EU and world issues, we would have one international identity and recognition, we would trade directly from our own state, tourism would take off due to direct flights, TCs would return from abroad, we could take in Russian money like yourselves, we could ask for bailouts from the EU, my mail would come direct to my address etc etc. Is that enough?

You arent far off the mark actually,
You can add this...
The federal government will have port of entry jurisdiction,jurisdiction over the Federal police,build interstate roads, levy a tax on all citizens of Cyprus...collect taxes and build interstate roads. The Federal Supreme court will overrule both constituent states, in its decisions appeal of last resort to the Federal Supreme court. Much like the system here in the usa...The Federal government will be comprised according to the ratio of population of the two ethnic groups.....committies for eu and foreign affairs will be represented by both ethnic groups...

As for banks, all banks in the Eu will probably come under the umbrella of the Central bank of Europe, who will regulate them....

Do you see any problems with the above?

"The Federal government will be comprised according to the ratio of population of the two ethnic groups" eg 8GCs and 2TCs majority vote system? how will we have impact when the balance is firmly in the GCs favor? There has to be checks and balances to make sure we are not swept to one side or we will just return to the problems of the past.

You will have the same status as Texans do in the USA. And free T-bone stakes for life (or sausages if you prefer. We are the "dog" guarding them Remember?).

its only free in texas if you can eat a 72 ounce t-bone in less then an hour, if not then you got to pay $60...

[Pyrpolizer]

The checks and balances that you want are basically useless Vp...In a federation with two constituent states and a strong federal government, the Tc will be able to run their affairs up to a point.....what you seem to want with checks and balances is to restrict the federal government of its duties

But that's the whole point for those who are basically PARTITIONISTS. They don't really want a true Federation where the political equality of the STATES is a given fact. They want a so called Federation of 2 totally or by 99% independent and separate and equal states. In that case you surely need a hell lot of checks and balances so that there is absolute and guaranteed equality of the 2 states.

The UN however were very careful in their call for a BBF with political equality to clarify in their next paragraph that it does not mean numerical equality. This means there will always be a minority and a majority issue in all aspects of the Federation be it which majority runs the economy, which majority contributes the most, and which majority's the interest will always be on top of the list. These things cannot be digested by those Kibrislis who come from the partitionist camp, after realizing their partition dream is impossible...

We' ve heard of VP telling us 100s of times about those checks and balances. However not even once have we got a real example of just one check and balance that would apply to a TRUE FEDERATION. There you go VP give us an example....

That said the Kibrisli and the Turks really forget that while for them the No1 issue is the governing system, for the Kypreoi there are far more #1 issues, be it the property issue, the settlers issue, the application of human rights and EU principles issues, for which the Kibrisli-Turkish side has not agreed on anything.
The kypreoi have already offered their very best to the Kibrislis regarding their #1 concern, what have the Kibrisli+Turks offered the Kypreoi so far? ZEROOOOOO.

[Get Real!]

Mistaken identity – Malaysian Queen did not visit north

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/mista ... h/20120720

So VP put on his suit and went to the Kratos for nothing!

[Me Ed]

The checks and balances that you want are basically useless Vp...In a federation with two constituent states and a strong federal government, the Tc will be able to run their affairs up to a point.....what you seem to want with checks and balances is to restrict the federal government of its duties

But that's the whole point for those who are basically PARTITIONISTS. They don't really want a true Federation where the political equality of the STATES is a given fact. They want a so called Federation of 2 totally or by 99% independent and separate and equal states. In that case you surely need a hell lot of checks and balances so that there is absolute and guaranteed equality of the 2 states.

The UN however were very careful in their call for a BBF with political equality to clarify in their next paragraph that it does not mean numerical equality. This means there will always be a minority and a majority issue in all aspects of the Federation be it which majority runs the economy, which majority contributes the most, and which majority's the interest will always be on top of the list. These things cannot be digested by those Kibrislis who come from the partitionist camp, after realizing their partition dream is impossible...

We' ve heard of VP telling us 100s of times about those checks and balances. However not even once have we got a real example of just one check and balance that would apply to a TRUE FEDERATION. There you go VP give us an example....

That said the Kibrisli and the Turks really forget that while for them the No1 issue is the governing system, for the Kypreoi there are far more #1 issues, be it the property issue, the settlers issue, the application of human rights and EU principles issues, for which the Kibrisli-Turkish side has not agreed on anything.
The kypreoi have already offered their very best to the Kibrislis regarding their #1 concern, what have the Kibrisli+Turks offered the Kypreoi so far? ZEROOOOOO.

I guess, in a nutshell, the fundamental question is: what do the TCs actually stand for?