Because they can!
Yes. But why it bothered them if diesel is cheaper in Cyprus?
Devil, why do you have to be so negative and absolute? Sometimes not everything is all black or all white. 
Biodiesel
14 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
by andytandreou » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:57 am
devil... Biodiesel is only for diesel cars remember!!! Not all cars run diesel and even if all of them where switched to Bio-diesel fuel it wouldn't require 30-40% of arable land in Cyprus to supply because, it would probably be cheaper getting the fuel from another country!
You are missing the bigger picture anyway. Bio-diesel will not become the standard fuel of the future. The fact is that all these technologies like Hybrid engines, Bio-diesel and Natural gas are all "Transitional" technologies which will get us through this very expensive fuel crisis until we can find a better way to travel.
Electric and Hydrogen cars are the only way to go and i foresee that most of us will be driving cars which are much smaller and much more economical and completely electric.
Electricity is the most efficient way to travel. I'm not a scientists and I'm not an expert but I will give you an example of this: Imagine you didn't have electricity supply in your home because the EAC couldn't supply you with any. You would obviously go and get a generator and keep it running so you could have electricity on demand, correct? What would happen if you only had one light on in the house? The generator would still keep running and wasting energy even though you are only using one light-bulb! This is exactly how the cars of today work. If you stop at a traffic light then your engine is still running and wasting energy even though you don't need it.
Imagine for a moment that your house was finally connected to the electricity grid and the power came whenever you needed it. Would you still use as much energy as a generator? No you wouldn't! You would use a lot less energy and when you didn't need it you wouldn't use any at all.
There is a fundamental concept that cars produce their own power supply by burning fuel. In a way, each car is it's own mini power station. But if cars stored their energy in batteries it wouldn't be necessary to carry this "power station" in your car. Cars are not efficient in producing energy! There is a huge amount of waste and people usually fix their cars only when they see a visible problem like smoke or loose parts. Why do u think we need to let an engine warm-up before we drive? It's because engines need to reach optimum conditions to generate power efficiently, but they are rarely in optimum condition as we well know.
A power-plant on the other hand is one centralized engine, working 24 hours a day, producing electricity at optimum conditions with minimal loss and maximum efficiency. If we all switched to electric cars and allowed a central power-plant to produce our energy, instead of our cars, we would quickly realise that we are making a saving just from the increased efficiency. not to mention the fact that cars would not pollute our cities anymore and they would be as quiet as a ball rolling on the ground!!!
This is my opinion anyway.
You are missing the bigger picture anyway. Bio-diesel will not become the standard fuel of the future. The fact is that all these technologies like Hybrid engines, Bio-diesel and Natural gas are all "Transitional" technologies which will get us through this very expensive fuel crisis until we can find a better way to travel.
Electric and Hydrogen cars are the only way to go and i foresee that most of us will be driving cars which are much smaller and much more economical and completely electric.
Electricity is the most efficient way to travel. I'm not a scientists and I'm not an expert but I will give you an example of this: Imagine you didn't have electricity supply in your home because the EAC couldn't supply you with any. You would obviously go and get a generator and keep it running so you could have electricity on demand, correct? What would happen if you only had one light on in the house? The generator would still keep running and wasting energy even though you are only using one light-bulb! This is exactly how the cars of today work. If you stop at a traffic light then your engine is still running and wasting energy even though you don't need it.
Imagine for a moment that your house was finally connected to the electricity grid and the power came whenever you needed it. Would you still use as much energy as a generator? No you wouldn't! You would use a lot less energy and when you didn't need it you wouldn't use any at all.
There is a fundamental concept that cars produce their own power supply by burning fuel. In a way, each car is it's own mini power station. But if cars stored their energy in batteries it wouldn't be necessary to carry this "power station" in your car. Cars are not efficient in producing energy! There is a huge amount of waste and people usually fix their cars only when they see a visible problem like smoke or loose parts. Why do u think we need to let an engine warm-up before we drive? It's because engines need to reach optimum conditions to generate power efficiently, but they are rarely in optimum condition as we well know.
A power-plant on the other hand is one centralized engine, working 24 hours a day, producing electricity at optimum conditions with minimal loss and maximum efficiency. If we all switched to electric cars and allowed a central power-plant to produce our energy, instead of our cars, we would quickly realise that we are making a saving just from the increased efficiency. not to mention the fact that cars would not pollute our cities anymore and they would be as quiet as a ball rolling on the ground!!!
This is my opinion anyway.
- andytandreou
- Member
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:58 pm
- Location: Larnaka
by devil » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:50 pm
Andy
You are half-right and half-wrong.
I quoted bio-fuels, not just diesel. 10-20% pure bio-ethanol added to petrol also helps, just as much as 10-20% of bio-oils added to diesel fuel. Whether we import bio-fuels or produce them locally, they still need more energy to produce and transport than the energy you can obtain from them, in most cases. I'm all for a national collection of USED veggie/animal oils from deep fryers and slaughter houses (rendered fats). They can be easily purified and added to traditional diesel fuel, requiring no modification to the car. I am all against growing bio-fuel crops (there may be a few exceptions, but the biggest drawback is that it requires a monoculture radius of ~ 60-70 km to provide sufficient produce to justify a processing station economically and the average transport of the harvested crops within this circle will consume most of the fuel produced).
As far as cars are concerned, the website http://www.cypenv.org/Files/cars.htm is specifically devoted to the problem in Cyprus, while http://www.cypenv.org/Files/hydrogen.htm talks about hydrogen, particularly for cars.
If you had studied energy and the environment as deeply as I have (I used to work for UNEP), you would know that the 2nd law of thermodynamics rules that any conversion of energy will, in practice, involve losses. Using electricity for transport is less efficient than a good hybrid car in the conversion of the chemical energy in the fuel to the mechanical action in the wheels:
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of a Prius car = ~35%
Overall chemical>electricity efficiency of a modern power station = ~40%
Overall electricity>electricity efficiency of a battery in an electric car = ~80%
Overall electric>mechanical efficiency in an electric car = ~90%
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of an electric car = 40/100 x 80/100 x 90/100 x 100 = ~29%
Therefore an electric car will burn more fuel than a hybrid car.
Overall chemical>electricity efficiency of a modern power station = ~40%
Overall electrical>hydrogen efficiency in an electrolyser = ~75%
Overall hydrogen losses efficiency in a distribution system = ~90%
Overall hydrogen>electricity efficiency in a Ballard fuel cell hydrogen car = ~45%
Overall electric>mechanical efficiency in a hydrogen car = ~90%
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of an electric car = 40/100 x 75/100 x 90/100 x 45/100 x 90/100 x 100 = ~11%
Therefore a hydrogen car will burn MUCH more fuel than a hybrid car.
This does not take into account other basic facts abour Ballard fuel cells (10 min warm-up from switch-on to starting to move, lifetime of ~1,000 hours, insufficient platinum in the world to satisfy demand etc).
It must be emphasised very strongly that hydrogen is NOT a fuel, it is only a rather inefficient means of storing energy produced by other means, in much the same way as a battery.
IMO, we do not have a suitable battery technology (yet?) for economical mass-produced electric cars and we certainly do not have the electric infrastructure to keep their batteries charged. If everyone ran electric (or hydrogen) cars, we would have to double/triple the existing power generation capacity and the distribution grid. This would cost billions and, if we were to respect our EU/Kyoto commitments, it could be done only with a combination of renewables and nuclear power (a EuroPR 1.6 GWe nuclear power station could just about provide sufficient energy for about 80,000 - 100,000 electric cars in peak condition).
The only real answer to reduce our dependence on oil for transport is an efficient public transport system: high-speed trains serving hubs outside the cities and efficient trolley-buses or trams from the hubs to all the quarters of the city, ban on all other vehicles in the city-centres from 0700 to 2100 h, emergency vehicles and certified handicapped persons excepted. Goods should also be transported using the same infrastructure (ban on goods vehicles for intercity use). The energy for this would have to be nuclear. Tolls on motorways: tax on motor fuels and cars to discourage their use, say £2/l or tax per km: efficient hybrid bus services from city hubs to villages. Free bicycles available at hubs and other strategic points. Yes, it would cost a fortune, but would it not be worth it, if only to save lives from road accidents, pollution-induced illnesses etc. and to make Cyprus a little nearer to the paradise it could be?
You are half-right and half-wrong.
I quoted bio-fuels, not just diesel. 10-20% pure bio-ethanol added to petrol also helps, just as much as 10-20% of bio-oils added to diesel fuel. Whether we import bio-fuels or produce them locally, they still need more energy to produce and transport than the energy you can obtain from them, in most cases. I'm all for a national collection of USED veggie/animal oils from deep fryers and slaughter houses (rendered fats). They can be easily purified and added to traditional diesel fuel, requiring no modification to the car. I am all against growing bio-fuel crops (there may be a few exceptions, but the biggest drawback is that it requires a monoculture radius of ~ 60-70 km to provide sufficient produce to justify a processing station economically and the average transport of the harvested crops within this circle will consume most of the fuel produced).
As far as cars are concerned, the website http://www.cypenv.org/Files/cars.htm is specifically devoted to the problem in Cyprus, while http://www.cypenv.org/Files/hydrogen.htm talks about hydrogen, particularly for cars.
If you had studied energy and the environment as deeply as I have (I used to work for UNEP), you would know that the 2nd law of thermodynamics rules that any conversion of energy will, in practice, involve losses. Using electricity for transport is less efficient than a good hybrid car in the conversion of the chemical energy in the fuel to the mechanical action in the wheels:
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of a Prius car = ~35%
Overall chemical>electricity efficiency of a modern power station = ~40%
Overall electricity>electricity efficiency of a battery in an electric car = ~80%
Overall electric>mechanical efficiency in an electric car = ~90%
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of an electric car = 40/100 x 80/100 x 90/100 x 100 = ~29%
Therefore an electric car will burn more fuel than a hybrid car.
Overall chemical>electricity efficiency of a modern power station = ~40%
Overall electrical>hydrogen efficiency in an electrolyser = ~75%
Overall hydrogen losses efficiency in a distribution system = ~90%
Overall hydrogen>electricity efficiency in a Ballard fuel cell hydrogen car = ~45%
Overall electric>mechanical efficiency in a hydrogen car = ~90%
Overall chemical>mechanical efficiency of an electric car = 40/100 x 75/100 x 90/100 x 45/100 x 90/100 x 100 = ~11%
Therefore a hydrogen car will burn MUCH more fuel than a hybrid car.
This does not take into account other basic facts abour Ballard fuel cells (10 min warm-up from switch-on to starting to move, lifetime of ~1,000 hours, insufficient platinum in the world to satisfy demand etc).
It must be emphasised very strongly that hydrogen is NOT a fuel, it is only a rather inefficient means of storing energy produced by other means, in much the same way as a battery.
IMO, we do not have a suitable battery technology (yet?) for economical mass-produced electric cars and we certainly do not have the electric infrastructure to keep their batteries charged. If everyone ran electric (or hydrogen) cars, we would have to double/triple the existing power generation capacity and the distribution grid. This would cost billions and, if we were to respect our EU/Kyoto commitments, it could be done only with a combination of renewables and nuclear power (a EuroPR 1.6 GWe nuclear power station could just about provide sufficient energy for about 80,000 - 100,000 electric cars in peak condition).
The only real answer to reduce our dependence on oil for transport is an efficient public transport system: high-speed trains serving hubs outside the cities and efficient trolley-buses or trams from the hubs to all the quarters of the city, ban on all other vehicles in the city-centres from 0700 to 2100 h, emergency vehicles and certified handicapped persons excepted. Goods should also be transported using the same infrastructure (ban on goods vehicles for intercity use). The energy for this would have to be nuclear. Tolls on motorways: tax on motor fuels and cars to discourage their use, say £2/l or tax per km: efficient hybrid bus services from city hubs to villages. Free bicycles available at hubs and other strategic points. Yes, it would cost a fortune, but would it not be worth it, if only to save lives from road accidents, pollution-induced illnesses etc. and to make Cyprus a little nearer to the paradise it could be?
- devil
- Regular Contributor
- Posts: 1536
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:33 pm
by andytandreou » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:59 pm
devil wrote:The only real answer to reduce our dependence on oil for transport is an efficient public transport system: high-speed trains serving hubs outside the cities and efficient trolley-buses or trams from the hubs to all the quarters of the city, ban on all other vehicles in the city-centres from 0700 to 2100 h, emergency vehicles and certified handicapped persons excepted. Goods should also be transported using the same infrastructure (ban on goods vehicles for intercity use). The energy for this would have to be nuclear. Tolls on motorways: tax on motor fuels and cars to discourage their use, say £2/l or tax per km: efficient hybrid bus services from city hubs to villages. Free bicycles available at hubs and other strategic points. Yes, it would cost a fortune, but would it not be worth it, if only to save lives from road accidents, pollution-induced illnesses etc. and to make Cyprus a little nearer to the paradise it could be?
This is truly the only real answer!!! You are 100% right on this one.
I also imagine a decentralised energy-prodcucing culture where people have PV panels on the roofs of their houses which recharge their cars and power their homes. Of course electricity would still be required by some but if we don't start to take advantage of the energy of the sun (especially in Cyprus) then we are just stupid.
- andytandreou
- Member
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:58 pm
- Location: Larnaka
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