Cyprus-Forum.com

[andytandreou]

The question is simple enough...

My take on the matter is that:

Turkish Cypriots feel that they cannot possibly give up the TRNC and unite with Greek Cypriots. They believe that they cannot trust G/Cs' and that they need the protection of Turkey or they will be at the mercy of Greek Cypriot violence and racism. Turkish Cypriots would rather have their own state in the North of Cyprus, living under their own control with no influence from Greek Cypriots.

Greek Cypriots believe that the whole of Cyprus belongs to Cypriots (of all ethnic backgrounds). From Larnaca to Keryneia people should be free to move, travel, live or work with no borders and no restriction. Greek Cypriots believe that the Republic of Cyprus should enclose the Northern territories and there should be no division what-so-ever.

So which is it?



My belief is that the way things where pre-1974 where perfect, minus of-course the retarded constitution of Cyprus.

Can I ask... Would Turkish Cypriots be willing to live in a united Cyprus if:

You could vote freely (even for president, not just vice-president)?
If you could follow your religious beliefs freely and build mosques anywhere?
If Turkish was an official language not just in the government but in education too?
If the National anthem of Cyprus was changed to music-only (no Greek or Turkish)?
If your rights where protected by a new constitution which makes no distinction between Greek or Turkish ethnic background?
If you instantly become Europeans?


A solution of the Cyprus problem could happen easily if Turkish Cypriots didn't want a state of their own. We could all live under the protection of the new Republic without fear or racism. It wouldn't take long for Turkish Cypriots to make their way up the ranks of government and private institutions and we could always help this along by employing thousands of Turkish Cypriots (with appropriate qualifications) in high-ranking government jobs in the Police, Fire-department, Hospitals, Courts and private enterprise.

The RoC is the perfect canvas to draw our new future together. Do Turkish Cypriots not understand that they would be equal in Cyprus even if they are a minority in numbers? Don't you understand that we are willing to change the image of Cyprus for you to a fusion of Turkish and Greek influence AND FROM THAT POINT ON THIS WILL BE THE MEANING OF BEING "CYPRIOT"?

[Piratis]

andy, paying taxes is something very good. With these taxes the state can build hospitals, schools, roads, provide the necessary to the poor etc. I believe everybody can agree that hospitals, schools, roads etc are a good thing.
However if it was really easy to cheat and pay much less or even no tax what do you think most people would do?

With TCs is a similar case. If they can screw us and gain more for themselves they will do it. And just like the tax "payer" that pays no taxes, they will find a million excuses as to why what they do is ok.

The only way to change this is a change in the balance of power. If TCs realize that they can not gain on our loss and that their illegalities are harming them instead of helping them, then they would be much more willing to accept a fair solution to the Cyprus problem.

[garbitsch]

If a very successful Turkish Cypriot stands for presidential election, what will be his chance to be elected? I want sincere answers! Who can assure that nobody will look at his ethnic background but they will take into account his merits? I remember a poll answered by Greek Cypriots, which majority was against to a Turkish Cypriot president, irrespective to his merits and abilities.

Another question: What if we all eliminate the ethnic differences and prerogatives from the constitution. What will be the chance of a Turkish Cypriot to take part in a government? Will the political parties be shaped around ethnic or political alignement? What will be the chance of a Turkish Political party to be elected into the parliament?

[BirKibrisli]

If a very successful Turkish Cypriot stands for presidential election, what will be his chance to be elected? I want sincere answers! Who can assure that nobody will look at his ethnic background but they will take into account his merits? I remember a poll answered by Greek Cypriots, which majority was against to a Turkish Cypriot president, irrespective to his merits and abilities.

Another question: What if we all eliminate the ethnic differences and prerogatives from the constitution. What will be the chance of a Turkish Cypriot to take part in a government? Will the political parties be shaped around ethnic or political alignement? What will be the chance of a Turkish Political party to be elected into the parliament?

Garbitsch,Selamlar
I think andytandreu was hinting that there will not be separate GC or TC parties,but all parties will be pancypriot.You will just join a party that is closest to your political ideology.

Andy,I for one would love to say yes to your proposition,and I sincerely think it can work.But I don't even have a vote in this matter in the TRNC,because I have lived abroad for over 30 years.You see I have not one iota of nationalism left in me,so I can see everyone as human beings who will eventually do the right thing according to simple human decency and moral standarts.But those TCs who live in Cyprus will never bring themselves to agree to cutting their apronstrings to their "Mother".That is why I see,as a first step the return to the 1960 constitution,with all its imperfections.After some time when trust is built between the two communities we could talk about making Cyprus a truly independent nation by adapting your proposals.This probablity will have to be spelled out at the beginning,so that TCs do not take their ball and run to mummy like last time. But how many GCs are prepared to return to the original Rof C,I wonder?And how many TCs for that matter?

[Viewpoint]

Birkibrisli

That is why I see,as a first step the return to the 1960 constitution,with all its imperfectionsAfter some time when trust is built between the two communities we could talk about making Cyprus a truly independent nation by adapting your proposals

Is this the same 1960 constitution that the GCs say they were forced to sign and the same one they wanted to change via Akritas plan because they frlt it gave TCs to much power???

What makes you think it will work this time? People like Piratis will object and move to make changes to the current constitution they use right now which is ok because it totally GC but if we should return then be certain GC will cry human rights & international law and have it changed to ensure they are they majority and we are reduced to a status of maronites and armenians?? Is that what you want Birkibrisli??

This probablity will have to be spelled out at the beginning,so that TCs do not take their ball and run to mummy like last time.

How insulting to Turkish Cypriots, think before you type birkibrisli, good thing mummy was there otherwise we would have been fucked to put it mildly and you would not be discussing Cyprus from the comfort of your computer.

But how many GCs are prepared to return to the original Rof C,I wonder?And how many TCs for that matter?

I would estimate that the majority of TCs would say OXI....

[Piratis]

If a very successful Turkish Cypriot stands for presidential election, what will be his chance to be elected? I want sincere answers! Who can assure that nobody will look at his ethnic background but they will take into account his merits?

The ideal would be if all people judged the candidates based on their capabilities and their agenda. However, unfortunately, this is not the case in most parts of the world. People look at all kinds of stuff and we can not avoid it. Some people would not vote somebody because of his age (too young, too old) some people will not vote somebody because she is a woman, some people will not vote for somebody because they don't like the way he looks etc. Nobody said that democracy is the perfect system. However these imperfections should not be used as an excuse in order to have something undemocratic. Personally I am sure that after some decades of peaceful coexistence nobody would care about ethnic background. As we have agreed already things can not happen overnight.

I remember a poll answered by Greek Cypriots, which majority was against to a Turkish Cypriot president, irrespective to his merits and abilities

What did this poll asked exactly? Because some time ago (annan plan etc) what was negotiated was to have a TC president regardless if this person was voted by the majority of Cypriots or not.

What will be the chance of a Turkish Cypriot to take part in a government?

In the beginning quotas can exist to guarantee that TCs do not take less than their population ratio. These quotas can stay for as long as the TCs want.

Will the political parties be shaped around ethnic or political alignement?

They can be shaped any way the want.

What will be the chance of a Turkish Political party to be elected into the parliament?

TCs are 18%. Today we have parties that are in the parliament with less than 3%. TCs not only will be represented but this 18% will be extremely significant. Don't forget that for the last 4-5 elections the president of RoC is elected with just 1-5% difference.

[garbitsch]

In the beginning quotas can exist to guarantee that TCs do not take less than their population ratio. These quotas can stay for as long as the TCs want.

That's what I am saying. There should be some prerogatives, but whenever we ask for it, we are accused of being racist and seperatist.

TCs are 18%. Today we have parties that are in the parliament with less than 3%. TCs not only will be represented but this 18% will be extremely significant. Don't forget that for the last 4-5 elections the president of RoC is elected with just 1-5% difference.

Well the thing is how many of 18% will be able to vote and how many of them will be able to make it in the government. If I was to be a Greek Cypriot I wouldn't vote for a party with the majority of Turkish Cypriots. Besides, that 18% will be divided amongst several political parties, which a very few will end up in the parliament. The workability of your suggestion can only happen if all Turkish Cypriots vote for one party, so that it can form a government with a Greek Cypriot party. As I said, we really need a significant time to create an artificial Cypriot identity in the minds of people, so that people will decrease their biases and prejudices to each other and have a peaceful coexistence. Another thing that bothers me is why there isn't even a strong Belgian identity in Belgium and are we going to succeed a Cypriot identity in Cyprus after all of those mistrust and fights we had with each other. So, before we have a solution, we should establish that trust and coexistence. Don't give the example of "opening the borders". We cannot really analyse the situation unless there is an absence of a deterrent power (i.e. army).

[BirKibrisli]

Hello,Viewpoint,
I am sorry if some of my ideas and beliefs are upsetting you.
The key to my thinking is that we need to put the past behind us to find a solution.Sticking to the same old arguments will get us nowhere.
Yes,I do believe that given our shared experience of the past 55 years,the Rof C can work this time around.If the GCs agree to take us back they will know that for a lot of TCs this would be a major compromise from where we are today.We would be giving up the possibility of having our own state one day,which was a cherished dream for a lot of TCs,I know.But the other key to my thinking is that we cannot build a just and peaceful solution on GCs resentment and bitterness.We were and we are a minority in Cyprus,so why should we expect to be treated any other way.What do we know about the status of the Maronites and Armenians?Aren't they living peacefully with their fellow Cypriots in the South?Are they oppressed or prosecuted by the majority?

Yes,I do believe we took the ball and ran to Mummy in 1963.We could have stayed and fight for our legitimate rights via the existing international laws and quarantees,couldn't we?But maybe that didn't suit us because what we really wanted was Partition.

And do you really believe the GCs did not have the military might to wipe us from the face of the earth,if they wanted to between 1963 and 1974?
And if they didn't doesn't that prove we could stand on our own two feet without raising the flag and running into Turkey's arms?
Are you happy and proud as a TC to admit that "we would have been fucked to put it mildly" without Mummy's help, that we are not capable of looking after ourselves?
Believe me,Viewpoint,the front of my computer is not a very comfortable place.I love my country and I miss my country terribly. After racking my brain for years I came to the conclusions I came about Cyprus and the possible lasting solution.My experiences in the past 30 odd years in Australia were obviously decisive in shaping my opinions. I no longer need to hide behind my ethnic origins in seeking a solution.I no longer believe that the majority of GCs are ready and waiting to drink my blood the moment Turkish Army leaves Cyprus.That is our fundamental difference,imo.

[garbitsch]

Garbitsch,Selamlar
I think andytandreu was hinting that there will not be separate GC or TC parties,but all parties will be pancypriot.You will just join a party that is closest to your political ideology.

Selamlar... I am not saying that there can't be pancypriot parties. I am just asking if this will happen at all. AKEL was thought to be a pancypriot party, but for a long time it has supported enosis, and then changed it's position and advocated Cyprus's independence. Fair enough. But how many Greek Cypriot party is willing to open their gates to Turkish Cypriots? Akel is just one. DISY's sudden transformation still scares me. We got Papapetrou's party, which is the closest party to Turkish Cypriots. Then we got DIKO etc, which are on the right side of the center.

What you are saying about pancypriot parties require creation of new parties. They are all supposed to be leftist parties, since I cannot imagine a pancypriot rightist party (are they going to support cypriot nationality??). What will a person with nationalist views vote for? I know in Australia, the TCs and G.Cs live like brothers, which this is the case in London. But you guys are living TOGETHER. In Cyprus the case is different. We need time to attain the level of the coexistence between T.Cs and G.Cs living abroad.

[BirKibrisli]

Garbitsch,thanks for your responce.
I agree with you,the key will be developping the trust and respect between the communities.That is why I am in favour of returning to the 1960 constitution firstly. That would allow most people to return to their homes,which will mean people starting to live together again.As most GCs would be unhappy with the special previlages given to TCs,that Constitution will need to change in the future.If both communities go into this knowing that there will be a new constitution negotiated down the line,that should keep the tensions minimal.Personally I want to have a say in chosing my President if I return to Cyprus.And I will welcome the challenge of maintaining my cultural identity,and forging new political horizons for all Cypriots irrespective of their ethnic origins.As you say,new parties will have to be created,fostered and brought into parliament.This process itself will forge closer links between the GCs and TCs of all political persuations.I suspect most present political parties will disappear under such an arrangement(on both sides).The ultra nationalists will form their own parties based on ethnicity,the rest of us will find new political alliances.And I believe when the time is right(when ethnicity will not be as important as it is today) only merit will decide who goes how far in these new political parties.And don't forget,a lot of us Cypriots living abroad will return after a solution,and that can only be a positive influence towards harmonious coexistence.