Cyprus-Forum.com

[bg_turk]

Consider the problem of HB-1 visas in the United States, which where created to open the doors to scientists and keep the US economy competitive by eliminating shortages of "smart" people. The raging argument at the moment is that the HB-1 visas are being used to bring in "smart" people from developing countries and these people in turn are replacing highly-paid Americans and causing unemployment. So what does this tell us about the most advanced economy on the planet? That they are racists? That they hire foreigners just to pay them less? Well, according to your logic the USA is among the most racist countries in the world!!! (notice the three exclamation marks)

I can assure you that foreign scientists in the US do get the same pay as local scientist. Any discrimination based on race, ethnic origin and gender in the US is against the law. The reason why the US "imports" foreign scientists is because there is a shortage as you mentioned, not because they are cheaper.

A guy came to my shop today and told me that he would clean the windows for 10 pounds. He sounded Russian and I quickly agreed as the company that usually does them charges £50 pounds a go. You can imagine how happy i was and you can imagine that the Russian was also happy because he found work. In the end the only one who wasn't happy was the Cypriot company which I called and cancelled my contract with.

Isn't that illegal and against the law to hire somebody just from the street? Have you ensured that the person gets his health benefits, pension and so on?

Foreigners (and T/Cypriots) will always be paid less because that is the way the world works and nobody can change that.

Why should a TC be paid less if he has the same qualifications as a greek Cypriot?

[Bananiot]

What on earth are you talking about? First of all, I responded to someone that claimed that no one works in Cyprus for peanuts, because minimum wages are guaranteed and then you come along to enlighten us that employing cheap foreigners (sic) is fine, because this is how the ... world works! On top, you conclude that I am here to stir trouble and you deducted this from my statements on this subject. Also, you quite modestly think that you are broad minded. Good luck to you.

P.S. Those that go to night clubs and pick up pretty east european girls, I bet, they do not pay in roubles but in hard currency at inflated prices despite the product being ... foreign. Does this help to keep inflation down? Perhaps yes, if the customers are highly paid government officials. Yet, do the club owners pay taxes so that the money they earn can at least be circulated back to the communitity?

[Piratis]

What about Piratis's logic? The English kill foxes, why should't we kill ampelopoulia? Hope your judgements on the Cyprus issue aren't formulated on the same principle, Piratis!

My principle is that double standards should not exist. The same principle is applied in both cases.

[andytandreou]

Why should a TC be paid less if he has the same qualifications as a Greek Cypriot?

In the interests of fairness I will agree with you that T/Cypriots are on average being paid lower than Greek Cypriots. But please understand that this statement is not fair.

Women get paid less than men in Cyprus but that's not an 100% accurate statement either. Are we comparing like for like here? Of course not! Women get paid less than men because women tend to be employed in lower ranking positions. For example, there are only a few women ministers in Cyprus and one of them recently quit her job. Nobody is suggesting that a woman minister would get paid less than a male minister? THAT IS ILLEGAL (like you pointed out).

So your statement about Turkish Cypriots getting paid less needs more clarification.

Are Turkish Cypriots being paid less because they are filling low-skill positions? Or are they being paid less even though Greek Cypriots working THE SAME EXACT JOB get paid more?

To be honest, knowing Greek Cypriots, I'm sure its a mixture of both and I advise any Turkish Cypriot who is being paid less money than his Greek Cypriot counterpart to report this crime to the employment agencies and the police. If they don't then nobody will care to find out and no action will be taken. BUT (and this is important) Please consider that a new employee cannot get the same amount as an old employee. To start with the old employee might have been given several raises related to his performance, good workers are rewarded more. Why should a newbie Turkish Cypriot start off with the same salary? Is this fair to the guys who have worked their asses off so they could get a performance related raise? NO IT'S NOT!!!

You have not convinced me that any Turkish Cypriot is being discriminated against. All you have done is twisted the statistics so they look bad to the very people who provide them! Give me solid evidence that my country ( an EU member ) is breaking EU law and I will gladly shut the hell up. A good example of discrimination would be if a Turkish Cypriot has been working for the same employer for some years and suddenly, a Greek Cypriot is hired for more money while doing the same job. THAT MY FRIEND IS DISCRIMINATION!!!

[Viewpoint]

andytandreou the point we were trying to get through to you was that TCs working in the south are just cheap labour, you started by saying there was no such thing accused Bananiot and myself of being bigot and racists, then you proceeded to tell us you did the same by having you windows cleaned with cheap labour. Why is it that you have problems accepting the truth and reality? is it because I am behind the statement that you automtically assume my comment is wrong and biased?

A guy came to my shop today and told me that he would clean the windows for 10 pounds. He sounded Russian and I quickly agreed as the company that usually does them charges £50 pounds a go

You yourself have proved that GCs hire cheap labour be it Indian Philipino Russian or Turkish Cypriot doesnt make any difference, Why are you so defensive when its clear that foreign workers doing the same jobs as GCs get less because you are well aware that these people are in need and are willing to work for the lower wages, this can also be labelled as exploitation..

The above also shows how Bananiot and VP have no good intentions. They are only here to stir trouble and this is more than evident from their narrow field of view. It's a shame that you can't have a broad-minded and unbiased conversation with these two.

If pointing out the truth is not having good intentions then I do not have a problem with that...but accusing me of stiring up trouble is not correct, I am here like everyone else to express my opinion if it doesnt not coincide with what you want to hear then tough luck, if we all agreed it would be a very boring world.
You should question your own arguements as you can also be accused of being blinkered and biased towards TCs and their views and concerns.

To be honest, knowing Greek Cypriots, I'm sure its a mixture of both and I advise any Turkish Cypriot who is being paid less money than his Greek Cypriot counterpart to report this crime to the employment agencies and the police. If they don't then nobody will care to find out and no action will be taken.

Great advise, they will be sacked or they cant go to the autorities because like you did with the window cleaner their employer has hired them illeagally without paying all the necessary contributions and benefits, thus placing these people in the cheap labour catagory.

You have not convinced me that any Turkish Cypriot is being discriminated against. All you have done is twisted the statistics so they look bad to the very people who provide them! Give me solid evidence that my country ( an EU member ) is breaking EU law and I will gladly shut the hell up.

If you want solid evidence go ask the Philipinos Russians and your Turkish Cypriot compatriots workers if they feel discriminated against and you will soon shut up.

[andytandreou]

No you buffoon... enough is enough!!! From now and on I am only going to discuss situations which you can PROOVE are factual. In the same way Greek Cypriots proved through the UN and ECHR that Turkey is an invading force in Cyprus. Now you have to prove these silly little points of yours. I will NOT talk to phillipinos nor will i talk to anyone else. WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO THEM AND TELL ME WHAT THEY SAY!!! Why dint you ask them if they prefer to go back to their country or stay in Cyprus.

I should know better than wasting my time with people who like to throw around false accusations, just so they can see what poor sap will take the bait.

From now and on Viewpoint I'm only going to discuss aspects of Greek Cypriots which you can prove. There are some of my friends that work without being registered and that means they can claim unemployment benefits. If Turkish Cypriots aren't being registered then how come the government knows how many they are? (You might say that they do surveys at the checkpoints) But how come employers are more than happy to register everyone else but not the T/Cypriots? Do you think the RoC likes loosing income taxes?

once again I'm going to include the paragraph which you failed to answer in my previous post. You consistently avoid the points most damaging to you and this is more than evident in all your replies. so please answer the following:

You have not convinced me that any Turkish Cypriot is being discriminated against. All you have done is twisted the statistics so they look bad to the very people who provide them! Give me solid evidence that my country ( an EU member ) is breaking EU law and I will gladly shut the hell up. A good example of discrimination would be if a Turkish Cypriot has been working for the same employer for some years and suddenly, a Greek Cypriot is hired for more money while doing the same job. THAT MY FRIEND IS DISCRIMINATION!!!

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, you as the defender of the barbaric acts of Turkey and the ethnic cleansing that you performed against Greek Cypriots should be the last person on earth to give lectures to others.
At the very moment we speak you are exploiting the homes and lands of people that you either killed or forced to abandon their properties.

[BirKibrisli]

Hey,calm down everyone,
You are all right.What you are describing is capitalism at work.
Free market economy,or whatever you call it.Capitalism revolve around greed.If an employer can pay someone less and get away with it,they will,with very few exeptions,I am sure.And if an employee can get away with paying less tax or no tax at all they will.This doesn't make any of it morally correct,but morality has little to do with capitalism.The global version anyway.But until we find a better way to live,we are stuck with market economy with all its imperfections.
What saddens me is how we love to attack each other because their arguments touches on something we find emotionally sensitive.And we go attacking the person and not his/her arguments.
I think,living in my ivory castle in Australia, it is remarkable that tens of thousands of TCs are given employement in the RoC.I think it is remarkable that TCs can use the hospitals in the South for nothing.I think it is remarkable that Cyprus government is still paying my mother my father's pension from his days working as a teacher in Cyprus.I think all this shows a generosity of the spirit on behalf of GCs towards their TC compatriots.Lets focus on the positives.Lets keep talking till the cows come home,or till we finally understand and respect each other,because it will happen if we don't give up.I find Bananiots posts always thoughtful and refreshing.I find Viewpoint's posts always full of passion and energy.I might not agree with him/her most of the time,but I will defend his/her right to say it with the cost of my life (with thanks to Voltaire).

[Viewpoint]

Birkibrisli thank you for your positive comments but when you are faced with a barrage of insults thrown at you what do you do? What I am trying to convey happens in all societies the TRNC included but our GC neightbours have problems comprehending that it happens in the south, yet contradicting themselves they openly declaring that they to hire cheap labour when the opportunity arises. Turkish Cypriots are not employed as lawyers, architects, bankers etc they are mainly employed by the construction sector as manual labour and paid under the going rates, this is called cheap labour like it or not andytandreou.
As for numbers of TC workers please refer to your own government statistics I think your around 4/5000 TCs registered workers, the rest are all illegal cheap labour.

I feel that the clarifications above gos someway to providing an answer to your question which you feel I am trying to avoid. As to the evidence you require you would have to talk directly with TC workers because whatever I put forward you would dispute with venom so whats the point. I can intoduce you to a few workers if you wish, then you may decide for yourself whether these people are being exploited or not.

andytandreou what do we do about your rudeness, do you think I should be jusr as rude and call you many insulting names like baffoon and bigot do you think that will help?? You have to get out of that pink utopian cloud you seem to floating around in and come to earth with a thump, the realities are before you and neither side is squeeky clean as you wish to believe. These TC workers that cross into the south everyday are the product of TC failures to create employment for these people under the past and current political and economic climate of the TRNC. One would wish that these people would have no need to cross to the south everyday to earn the daily bread under difficult conditions.

As for the fact that these TC workers are employed, pensions are paid, passports are provided and free health care is available seem to make many GCs uncomfortable because TCs are ungrateful for these concessions or what some would call bread crumbs, then I put it to you if your leadership has the balls then why dont they stop all these benefits, but how would the GC administration claim to represent the whole island? if they stop providing these basic services which are available to all citizens of that given country, the political gain both local and internationally far outweighs any cost that maybe involved.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint, you as the defender of the barbaric acts of Turkey and the ethnic cleansing that you performed against Greek Cypriots should be the last person on earth to give lectures to others.
At the very moment we speak you are exploiting the homes and lands of people that you either killed or forced to abandon their properties.

Piratis please change the record, it appears to be broken, you really need to get a new updated perspective on the Cyprus issue and start accepting that we are 2 equal communites...only then, you may be able to adopt a fliexible attitude towards TCs and a BBF solution.