Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Furthermore…

Let us not forget that the occupied territory is currently inhabited by about 280,000 people of which only about 50,000 are “Turkish Cypriots” represented by the Turkish Cypriot Eroglu.

However the overwhelming majority of “TRNC” residents are NOT “Turkish Cypriots” and therefore cannot be legally represented by Eroglu!

The 230,000 odd settlers should elect and promote their own community representative and the government of the RoC should encourage their representation and open a communication channel with this community also.

Technically, Eroglu only represents 5% of the current population residing in Cyprus and this figure should no longer be ignored.

[Hermes]

Thank you for telling people that there will 2 states under a federal roof with one international identity and political equality of the 2 states.

I wouldn't get too hung about it, VP. The idea of a 'constituent state' is really nothing more than glorified local government. By 'states' we just mean 'zones; as defined by the UN. By 'political equality' we just mean effective participation in government bodies. Neither is particularly controversial. Unless you choose to interpret it differently.

If you had an arrangement (like for instance the USA) where you have 2 'states' or 'zones' with local government for each area and one unified Central government and President, then it might work if freedom of movement, human rights, ability to reside and work anywhere for all residents was guaranteed. In the future as population changes occur there may even be an agreement to unify the 2 zones.

Where you have racist set-ups like four years a Greek Cypriot president then two years a Turkish Cypriot president, restrictions on rights to movement, lack of property restitution, vetoes, etc., then things will fall apart pretty quickly.

So really you'd be better off talking about two local government regions under one federal roof. A very large region (by size and population) in the south and a smaller TC one in the north. There would only be one unified 'federal' state under the EU. No point in confusing the matter.

[Hermes]

I doubt it matters any more. I really don't expect Cyprus talks to ever be held again at the community level (ie: GC vs TC) like we had seen in the past, but rather a more direct and international approach between Cyprus and Turkey.

Interesting post, GR. Wasn't this always Tassos Papadopoulos' suggested aim? Talk to the puppet-master and not the puppet...

[repulsewarrior]

GR, you are perfectly correct, and i hope that Cyprus will be Free, a place where its Citizens can be loving toward each other because as Cypriots they all equally love this island first. add to that the changing demographics of the region as well as Cyprus itself, extrapolate over the next 80-200 years, with the EU at its advent, and the possibility that many impoverished People now have the opportunity to exploit the potential of their natural wealth. the meaning of the Federal Solution within this context (and a population of twelve million at some point) must offer an Identity to all Cypriots. thus, in my mind it should not have to be "Greek", only the best that it can be (and having the ability to facilitate many mother tongues is a useful trait in this Information Age). National Assemblies at another level of government are most inviting thusly, in defining a Bicommunal Society, it allows for the Identity of Cypriots as Constituencies, a choice that they make as Citizens by residing in one place or another, so that as these distinct electors, they have a specific means to represent for themselves as Persons, as well, their needs.

...question, the displaced (all of them), what is Justice seen; what is the demonstration all Cypriots can take in recognition and respect?
...and what about for some, a return as they left, as communities, this would end the Green Line as a border, (but a frontier among many); wouldn't it?

i think we have failed to communicate at the Community level because the Cypriot identity has always been so closely wound around a Greek identity.
...isn't it time for the Republic to be free of this bias because there exists (at another level of Government), along with other Cypriot Constituencies, a Greek Constituency?

...this can happen under a Cypriot Flag, with many flags, under it; why not?

[repulsewarrior]

Thank you for telling people that there will 2 states under a federal roof with one international identity and political equality of the 2 states.

I wouldn't get too hung about it, VP. The idea of a 'constituent state' is really nothing more than glorified local government. By 'states' we just mean 'zones; as defined by the UN. By 'political equality' we just mean effective participation in government bodies. Neither is particularly controversial. Unless you choose to interpret it differently.

If you had an arrangement (like for instance the USA) where you have 2 'states' or 'zones' with local government for each area and one unified Central government and President, then it might work if freedom of movement, human rights, ability to reside and work anywhere for all residents was guaranteed. In the future as population changes occur there may even be an agreement to unify the 2 zones.

Where you have racist set-ups like four years a Greek Cypriot president then two years a Turkish Cypriot president, restrictions on rights to movement, lack of property restitution, vetoes, etc., then things will fall apart pretty quickly.

So really you'd be better off talking about two local government regions under one federal roof. A very large region (by size and population) in the south and a smaller TC one in the north. There would only be one unified 'federal' state under the EU. No point in confusing the matter.

Hermes, briefly my point is, why must there be only two 'zones'?

[Hermes]

Hermes, briefly my point is, why must there be only two 'zones'?

How many do you think is feasible on a small island, RW? The point is to bring back the occupied areas within the ROC so we call it a bi-zonal federation. It's really just a form of local government to keep the TCs happy (who think it's a 'state'). Eventually zones will be rendered meaningless under the EU where the drive will be towards more union and not increased division of the kind favoured by the racist TCs - whose time is coming to an end anyway.

[kimon07]

So then. GR returns with a radical new idea which comes to:

1. Legitimization of the Turkish invasion and occupation by making Turkey the one and only discussion partner for the solution of the SB, instead of demanding that the international community forces Turkey to abide by the existing UN resolutions and get the hell out.

2. Acceptance of the Anatolian settlers as lawful inhabitants, as a legit community and as discussion partners.

I suppose the next step should be to suggest that all Greek Cypriots migrate en mass to ...Australia and thus the CB will automatically be solved! And Erdogan's dream for the complete Turkification of Cyprus will come true. Splendid., Hurrah!

[Lordo]

I post this for discussion. It's really for the benefit of Turkish Cypriots who don't seem to understand that a federal solution is not a two-state solution.

1.The bi-zonal aspect of a reunification plan does not mean a two-state confederation, but rather means reunifying the Turkish-Cypriots with the original and legitimate government of the island - the Republic of Cyprus - which would itself offer a fair and viable administration.

2. Whether you call it the RoC or the United Cyprus Federation doesn't really matter, what counts is fair representation for all communities that make up Cyprus' population.

3. UN resolutions talk about a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based on political equality. Clinging to the idea of legalising the 'TRNC' - or two-states - is one of the reasons negotiations have been going nowhere. This has not happened for 37 years, there's no reason for it to happen anytime soon.

If only you understood 10% of what you pretend to understand, we would not be in this mess. It is easy to blame the Turkish Cypriots for failure.
And yet in 1973 peace plan was refused by Makrios because it precluded Enois and Taksim. Turkey and Dengtas agreed with it and so did Clerides and the Greek Government and the UN.

If you are to have a debate you must at least get the core facts right. Burring your head under the sand will get you nowhere.

[Maximus]

I think the 'Cyprob' should be left alone for a while (a better choice does not currently exist) so nature can take its course and finish what EOKA started.

The 'TCs' have a half life under the status quo which is serving the purpose of weeding their backwards and outdated minds from existence.

The 'TCs' want apartheid and devolution, if not recognition for being outlaws, pariahs and thieves so fuck them for hiding behind Turkey's lies and hypocrisy.

No one will miss them.

[bill cobbett]

Thank you for telling people that there will 2 states under a federal roof with one international identity and political equality of the 2 states.

I wouldn't get too hung about it, VP. The idea of a 'constituent state' is really nothing more than glorified local government. By 'states' we just mean 'zones; as defined by the UN. By 'political equality' we just mean effective participation in government bodies. Neither is particularly controversial. Unless you choose to interpret it differently.

If you had an arrangement (like for instance the USA) where you have 2 'states' or 'zones' with local government for each area and one unified Central government and President, then it might work if freedom of movement, human rights, ability to reside and work anywhere for all residents was guaranteed. In the future as population changes occur there may even be an agreement to unify the 2 zones.

Where you have racist set-ups like four years a Greek Cypriot president then two years a Turkish Cypriot president, restrictions on rights to movement, lack of property restitution, vetoes, etc., then things will fall apart pretty quickly.

So really you'd be better off talking about two local government regions under one federal roof. A very large region (by size and population) in the south and a smaller TC one in the north. There would only be one unified 'federal' state under the EU. No point in confusing the matter.

Yes, much of the misinformation comes from the wide meanings of definitions in language of this word "state".

A word that is often qualified for accuracy so we get such things as "nation-states".

In the hands of the apartheid partitionists, "state" is interpreted and promoted as meaning "country", so it is better to talk of "zones" where such manipulation of definitions is much more difficult.

In the EU context by the way and it is obviously a very important context... "autonomous regions"... (or shall we say "autonomous zones") as defined by discussions on the word "subsidiarity" is the way things are going. So although we often refer to the USA as an example of a federation made up of states, a better example for an EU member-state is Spain, where in recent years a good deal of power in local and zonal matters has gone down a level to the regions of Spain, places like Catalonia.