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Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby bill cobbett » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:50 pm

kimon07 wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Erdogan= Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.........!

It never fcuking ends!

Looks like NATO told Erdogan, "you are on your own on this one pal". We are not coming to save your butt. You violated Syrian airspace, and they shot your war plane down with ONLY a anti aircraft guns. How embarrassing is that to be shot down by a "catapult" basically. Not even a missile, but a anti aircraft gun from relatively close range, like 1-2 kilometers, therefore, the Turkish F-4 had to be close to Syrian land for god sake to be riddled with bullet holes. It most probably made a direct hit to the flight deck for the pilots not being able to eject. No wonder NATO told Erdogan to take it like a man. If you play with fire, you will get your fingers burnt. One more example as to why Turkey talks big on military, but is nothing but a toothless tiger. :roll:


Syria shot Turkish jet in front of many eyewitnesses
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syria- ... sCatID=409

F4 map.jpg


There is no need to say that for many countries having satellites, this is a pretty attractive location to watch.

And so the question is: Is it possible not to see the attack with so many witnesses around? Another question: Is it possible to hide the truth when there are so many eyes watching?


So the question is: Have American, British and NATO satellites recorded what and where exactly it happened? If yes, would they hide the information if it justified Turkey? I don't think so!


Naturally NATO with all those nice posts on CY and elsewhere in the region know exactly where the plane was flying. Equally as naturally they ain't gonna release the data cos it won't favour their ally.
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby Kikapu » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:14 pm

Kikapu wrote:Erdogan= Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.........!

It never fcuking ends!

Looks like NATO told Erdogan, "you are on your own on this one pal". We are not coming to save your butt. You violated Syrian airspace, and they shot your war plane down with ONLY a anti aircraft guns. How embarrassing is that to be shot down by a "catapult" basically. Not even a missile, but a anti aircraft gun from relatively close range, like 1-2 kilometers, therefore, the Turkish F-4 had to be close to Syrian land for god sake to be riddled with bullet holes. It most probably made a direct hit to the flight deck for the pilots not being able to eject. No wonder NATO told Erdogan to take it like a man. If you play with fire, you will get your fingers burnt. One more example as to why Turkey talks big on military, but is nothing but a toothless tiger. :roll:

Syria a 'clear and present danger' for Turkey: Erdoğan
ISTANBUL - Hürriyet Daily News

Syria has come to constitute a "clear and present danger" for Turkey, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said, adding that all military elements approaching the Turkish border from Syria would be considered "a threat" from now on.

The Turkish Armed Forces has changed its rules of engagement in the wake of the crisis, Erdoğan said. "The Turkish military will retaliate against border violations by Syria."

Everyone should know Turkey's wrath will "furious" over Syria’s downing of a Turkish jet last week, Erdoğan warned in his party's meeting today.

"Turkey's friendship is valuable, but everyone should know Turkey's wrath is equally furious," Erdoğan said.

Erdoğan "underlined" that the Turkish plane was shot down in international air space and crashed into Syrian waters.

"The downed jet was on a peaceful mission to test renewed radar systems," Erdoğan said.

Turkey's decision to act with common sense should not be understood as a state of weakness, Erdoğan said.

Turkish airspace was violated 114 times this year alone, Erdoğan said, added that all of the instances were resolved peacefully.

Syrian helicopters violated Turkey's airspace five times, but were peacefully warned to leave.

Syria's rulers did not represent the "brotherly" people of Syria, Erdoğan also said, noting the oppressive regime of Hafez al-Assad, the father of current President Bashar al-Assad. Turkey had hoped Bashar al-Assad would enact reforms to democratize his country, but the hopes were in vain, Erdoğan said.

"The current Syrian administration is a tyrannical regime that murders its own people," Erdoğan said, repeating that the al-Assad regime had "lost all legitimacy."

The jet was downed at noon on June 22.

June/26/2012

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syria- ... sCatID=338


This guy Kılıçdaroğlu is stating what I have been saying, that Turkey is nothing but a toothless Tiger and that Erdogan = Blah, Blah, Blah!

CHP leader Kılıçdaroğlu accuses the government of weakening Turkey’s deterrence because of its ‘foreign policy that depends on bluff’ while reiterating his support to use diplomatic routes to resolve the crisis on Syria hit jet.

“The government claims that Turkey has become a major power. No major power turns a blind eye to the killing of nine of its citizens, it’s intolerable. They said that it was a cause of war at the beginning, and then ministers held secret talks in the hotel rooms of Brussels to make a new start. Such bluffs dealt a big blow to Turkey’s deterrence,” he said.

“Foreign policy cannot depend on bluff. Let’s compare the two speeches of [Prime Minister Recep Tayyip] Erdoğan that he delivered after Israel’s killing of our nine citizens and Syria’s downing of our jet. They are nearly the same speeches, full of epic rhetoric. Erdoğan has become an object of derision in Middle Eastern newspapers. This is unacceptable for us,” Kılıçdaroğlu said.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-sl ... sCatID=338
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby bill cobbett » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:19 pm

Mad Dog Erdogan "an object of derision" ... never! ... oh...
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby kimon07 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:22 am

By Burak Bekdil

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/what-a ... sCatID=398

The frank and disturbing realism is: If a country’s air force can mistakenly bomb its own people and kill 34 innocent citizens it is hardly surprising that the air defences of another country can mistakenly down a foreign aircraft in its airspace.

……………………..

It is also bizarre that Ankara, once an all too willing broker for peace between disputing countries in the region, now needs multiple brokers to settle deepening disputes with countries in the surrounding vicinity. These days, the neo-Ottomans need the good offices of Russia and China to keep peace with Syria; ironically call on NATO and Iran at the same time to help sort out the crisis of the downed military plane in Syria; the United States for peace with Israel; the European Union for peace around Cyprus; and Iraqi Kurdish leader Masoud Barzani for peace in Turkey’s southeast.

………………………

There are already millions of Turks gossiping in coffee houses who will cheer if Turkey declared war on Syria, Turkish jets bombed Damascus and tanks rolled into Aleppo. When these neo-Ottoman masses have noticed that their all-too-powerful Turkey failed to knock down all of Syria, Iran, Russia and China altogether they may be dangerously disappointed.

With an Israeli apology for Mavi Marmara not in sight, the Israeli-Cypriot exploration for hydrocarbons off Cyprus progressing, the RF-4E downed by Syria with two pilots unfortunately still missing and the helplessness against perpetual PKK attacks, the foreign policy masters in Ankara may have to find an easier target to distract public disappointment.

Georgia, Armenia (and others), watch out!

June/27/2012
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby bill cobbett » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:28 am

kimon07 wrote:By Burak Bekdil

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/what-a ... sCatID=398

The frank and disturbing realism is: If a country’s air force can mistakenly bomb its own people and kill 34 innocent citizens it is hardly surprising that the air defences of another country can mistakenly down a foreign aircraft in its airspace.

……………………..

It is also bizarre that Ankara, once an all too willing broker for peace between disputing countries in the region, now needs multiple brokers to settle deepening disputes with countries in the surrounding vicinity. These days, the neo-Ottomans need the good offices of Russia and China to keep peace with Syria; ironically call on NATO and Iran at the same time to help sort out the crisis of the downed military plane in Syria; the United States for peace with Israel; the European Union for peace around Cyprus; and Iraqi Kurdish leader Masoud Barzani for peace in Turkey’s southeast.

………………………

There are already millions of Turks gossiping in coffee houses who will cheer if Turkey declared war on Syria, Turkish jets bombed Damascus and tanks rolled into Aleppo. When these neo-Ottoman masses have noticed that their all-too-powerful Turkey failed to knock down all of Syria, Iran, Russia and China altogether they may be dangerously disappointed.

With an Israeli apology for Mavi Marmara not in sight, the Israeli-Cypriot exploration for hydrocarbons off Cyprus progressing, the RF-4E downed by Syria with two pilots unfortunately still missing and the helplessness against perpetual PKK attacks, the foreign policy masters in Ankara may have to find an easier target to distract public disappointment.

Georgia, Armenia (and others), watch out!

June/27/2012


Oh Gawd! ... :cry:
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby Hermes » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:44 am

Kikapu wrote:“Foreign policy cannot depend on bluff. Erdoğan has become an object of derision in Middle Eastern newspapers. This is unacceptable for us,” Kılıçdaroğlu said.

Speaking of empty rhetoric, remember this one:

Turkey to drop sanctions on France over Armenia
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby ARMENIAN CYPRIOT » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:51 am

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NF26Ak01.html


Syria and Turkey's phantom war
Pepe Escobar

Once upon a time, not too long ago, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu was the prime proponent of a foreign policy dubbed "zero problems with our neighbors" - derided by many in the West as "new-Ottomanism".

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) meets this Tuesday in Brussels not only to craft its response to a Turkish F-4 Phantom jet shot being down by Syria's anti-aircraft artillery but to seal what sort of "new Ottomanism" is emerging from what actually turned into a "big problem with one of our neighbors" policy.

Davutoglu insists the F-4 was shot in international air space - although conceding it had briefly entered Syrian air space. Contradicting Syria's official explanation, he said the jet was
clearly marked as Turkish; was on a "training flight" to test Turkey's "national radar system"; and most of all had "no covert mission related to Syria".

Previously, Syrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi had stressed this was an "accident, not an attack". According to Makdissi, "an unidentified object entered our air space and unfortunately as a result it was brought down. It was understood only later that it was a Turkish plane."

Davutoglu, in a Turkish media blitzkrieg, as reported by Today's Zaman, reiterated this was a "solo flight"; the jet was "unarmed"; there was no warning before it was shot down; and as for Syria trying to connect the "not ill-intentioned violation" of its airspace to the shooting of the F-4, that was "irrelevant".

Violation of another country's air space, trying to avoid its defenses by flying at low altitude, is as normal to Davutoglu as a sheesh kebab for lunch; "There were many violations of Syrian air space by other countries before. But Syria shot down our unarmed plane."

But then the foreign minister started deviating (or not) from the script. He stressed, "No matter how the downed Turkish jet saga unfolds, we will always stand by [the] Syrian people". And this; "We will always stand by Syrian people until the advent of a democratic regime there." Forget about the F-4 Phantom; the "Syrian people" may sleep soundly because the heart of the matter remains regime change.

Everything else is irrelevant
NATO will consider Turkey's case under Article Four of its charter - which allows consultations whenever "the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened". We're not - yet - at Article Five, which is all about armed response. But we could be, depending how NATO interprets Turkey's assertion that the F-4 Phantom was "hit 13 miles off the Syrian coast, in international air space".

So according to Davutoglu's story the F-4 was briefly deviated to Syrian airspace by some irresistible force (Thor?); soon realized its mistake; left in a hurry; but then was shot down. By the way, it was not a "solo flight"; witnesses told Turkish TV they saw two low-flying fighter jets speed by in the direction of Syrian waters, but only one return.

As predictably as England being kicked out of Euro 2012, the usual European warmongering poodles of the William Hague kind have already stepped in, blaming Syria because Turkey violated Syrian airspace. Yet there's no evidence - so far - that Ankara warned the Syrian government and military they would be conducting some sort of reconnaissance very close to a by now very explosive border.

Whether the F-4 (or the pair of F-4s) was armed or not is, to quote Davutoglu, "irrelevant"; try telling the Pentagon, for instance, that an unknown, low-flying, fast-moving, unidentified object entering your air space is not a threat. If this was a military reconnaissance mission, as Davutoglu himself argues, the F-4 had to be armed.

And imagine if this was a Syrian jet flying over Turkish or Israeli territory.
Burn, Anatolia, burn
Ankara will certainly ask Damascus for a formal apology and payment of reparations. Tehran - which until virtually yesterday, that is, before the Syrian uprising, was part of an Ankara-Damascus-Tehran axis - is calling for cool heads to prevail.

As much as professional warmongers are encouraging a Gulf of Tonkin remix, that remains pure folly. Still, Asia Times Online has learned from a local source about "frantic" movement at NATO's sprawling Incirlik base in Turkey for days.

Everyone knows - but nobody talks about - NATO's command and control center in Iskenderun, in Turkey's Hatay province, near the Syrian border, set up months ago to organize, train and weaponize the motley crew known as the Free Syrian Army. Everyone knows Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the CIA are advising and weaponizing these Syrian NATOGCC "rebels" with essential Turkish help in the logistics/safe haven front.

Everyone knows Washington will settle for nothing less than regime change in Syria - to the benefit of a pliable, sub-imperial puppet (certainly not an Islamist). Everyone knows every provocation advances the not so hidden agenda of an all-out NATOGCC attack on Syria without a UN Security Council resolution, bypassing both Russia and China.

If "neo-Ottomanism" persists with its regime change obsession in Syria - to a large extent tied to the Turkish dream of finding a solution to the Kurdish "problem" - it had better start evaluating how Damascus could shower the Kurdish PKK with funds and logistics so they may unleash hell in Turkish Anatolia.

No doubt this will get much uglier. But in Wag the Dog terms - and that's what this is all about - no one knows for sure; is Turkey trying to wag the NATO dog into a war, or is it the other way around?
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby bill cobbett » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:38 am

Another consideration here is of course that the jets also flew illegally within the CY FIR, which should tell us that the flight controllers over at LCA would have some information about the flights.

Anyone know any of the controllers?... :roll:
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby Hermes » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:19 am

bill cobbett wrote:Mad Dog Erdogan "an object of derision" ... never! ... oh...


Firstly, the Israelis refuse to apologise over the killings of Turkish terrorists trying to break the Gaza blockade. Then the French pass an Armenian genocide bill despite Turkish protests. Cyprus takes over the EU Presidency despite Turkish objections. Cyprus and Israel proceed with drilling for gas in their territorial waters despite Turkish threats; and now the Syrians casually shoot down your plane!!

How can Erdogan be the new Caliph when everyone ignores him and thinks he is all mouth and no trousers?
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Re: Turkish "False Flag" Operation?

Postby CBBB » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:39 am

Hermes wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:Mad Dog Erdogan "an object of derision" ... never! ... oh...


Firstly, the Israelis refuse to apologise over the killings of Turkish terrorists trying to break the Gaza blockade. Then the French pass an Armenian genocide bill despite Turkish protests. Cyprus takes over the EU Presidency despite Turkish objections. Cyprus and Israel proceed with drilling for gas in their territorial waters despite Turkish threats; and now the Syrians casually shoot down your plane!!

How can Erdogan be the new Caliph when everyone ignores him and thinks he is all mouth and no trousers?


That should be "all mouth and no thobe".
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