Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

The one big problem with having a permanent restriction in place is just that, it's a permanent restriction. You call it a safeguard, from my viewpoint it is a form of division keeping me from where I feel I should be allowed to be. From my viewpoint as long as I don't abuse my right to be there (i.e. reside in the TCCS) then I should be allowed to be there. I don't feel that my simply living somewhere is grounds for someone else to feel threatened just because of my ethnic background.
I also think that most GCs would be flexible when it comes to a restricted set of voting rights within the TCCS until such a time as the TCCS is both economically and socially ready for a system along the lines of the Swiss model. Whilst I'm sure you would like to probe me on what exact political voting framework could be found to safeguard the TCCS I will request that I pass on this as I am no constitutional expert. However, that said, I am certain a political framework can be found that both safeguards the TCCS from GC political dominance but at the same time affords at least some voting rights (perhaps only at a very local level) to GCs living there.

Remember what exactly the mistakes of the past were:

1) TCs felt dominated by GCs and in particular felt very vulnerable due to their numerical inferiority on the island and the prospect of Enosis.

2) GCs felt frustrated by TCs secessionist stance and were continually wary of that secession taking effect with all its consequences.

Both communities mistrust of the other's true agenda fuelled the crisis to breaking point on more than one occasion.
Whilst TCs must not feel threatened by GCs and should not be swamped by them economically, at the same time GCs must not feel like the TCCS is a separate state in which they are not afforded the same rights. For some GCs (e.g. my father) the Annan Plan was enough simply because it made it clear that despite the restrictions along ethnic lines, the TCCS was under no circumstances to be considered a separate sovereign state. Had I voted perhaps even I would probably have been swayed enough by this one thing (+ my dad ) to vote yes. For the majority though, it seems that more is required.

I think you can have free movement and settlement in either state but the shall we call them invisable limits would protect and not encourage GC to attempt control of the TCCS. We need deterrants so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Invisible limits are ok as long as they remain so. The problem being that as soon as one GC is refused residence based on their ethnic background this will serve as a divisive force, something we don't want in a unified country.

[cypezokyli]

alexis in general i agree with you

vp it seems that the problem of trust is even greater when it comes to you. dont worry the church is not that influential any more. and even if it is, the gcs would first consider their own benefits rather than listening to some priest who tells them "go to the north, to hellenize kyrenia". we have a strong nationalistic feeling but trust me we are not that extreme.

but ofcource it is all down to trust.
it is like many gc are saying. how can u trust the tc veto? how do i know that they will not paralise the state? how can u be sure that turkey will not invade again if it keeps those rights?
well, i am not sure, and i dont know what will happen, but as i said before i am willing to give it a chance. that is: trust the tcs and hopefully they will trust us and not believing in some secret agendas.

i strongly believe that we are more mature in comparison to the 1960s.
i am confident that at least no community struggle will take place, or will not be allowed to take place.
perhaps i am utopian... who knows?
or some people just like to see the glass half full rather than half empty.

[Viewpoint]

Alexis so in other words you feel we should have no safety valves and that we not be swamped by a population that can in theory buy up the whole of the north overnight. Arent I left at the mercy of GCs?

Shouldnt there be deterrants to offset and ensure that GCs do not in moments of frustration and anger revert back to nationalistic ideas that Cyprus is a Greek island.

From my viewpoint as long as I don't abuse my right to be there (i.e. reside in the TCCS) then I should be allowed to be there. I don't feel that my simply living somewhere is grounds for someone else to feel threatened just because of my ethnic background.

Although I agree with you in principle, we have an extraordinary situation in Cyprus because we do not trust each other. Your interpretation may be like this today but as time passes can change, it is left to much to chance which makes me feel uncomfortable that as we have experienced in the past a few can influence the majority to extremes, I still hold out that with our track record we need safe guards to ensure no community will attempt or want to force its will on the other.

These restrictions maybe be reviewed if all goes well and both communities are living together in harmony then if both agree they can be removed alltogether but it should be the will of the people not forced.

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[Viewpoint]

cypezokyli

vp it seems that the problem of trust is even greater when it comes to you. dont worry the church is not that influential any more. and even if it is, the gcs would first consider their own benefits rather than listening to some priest who tells them "go to the north, to hellenize kyrenia". we have a strong nationalistic feeling but trust me we are not that extreme.

I have argued this all along and also given suggestions of how I think this issue can be addressed but for many GCs like Kifeas who argues that trust is just a pretext TCs hide behind who do not want union but division.

well, i am not sure, and i dont know what will happen, but as i said before i am willing to give it a chance. that is: trust the tcs and hopefully they will trust us and not believing in some secret agendas.

what would you do to encourage TCs to trust GCs?

i strongly believe that we are more mature in comparison to the 1960s.
i am confident that at least no community struggle will take place, or will not be allowed to take place.
perhaps i am utopian... who knows?
or some people just like to see the glass half full rather than half empty.

Do you really even having read many of the posts on this forum, the more I read the more I despair that we will ever find a solıtion other than recognized partition.
I dont think either community has matured enough to be flexible in finding a solution and maybe the hidden agenda of both sides is the status quo we live today??

[Alexis]

Alexis so in other words you feel we should have no safety valves and that we not be swamped by a population that can in theory buy up the whole of the north overnight. Arent I left at the mercy of GCs?

Not at all. Restrictions to residence would only be lifted after a set transition period in which the TCCS economy would be given a chance to catch up with that of the GCCS. And no you are not left to the mercy of the GCs, it just means you have to live with them and they with you, the objective of unifying the island.

Shouldnt there be deterrants to offset and ensure that GCs do not in moments of frustration and anger revert back to nationalistic ideas that Cyprus is a Greek island.

Should there not also be deterrents to ensure that TCs in moments of anger and frustration do not revert to their stance that they should have exclusive rights to a part of the island?
As Cypezokyli points out the issue of trust works both ways, particularly if Turkey is added to the mix: 'you fear us, we fear Turkey'.
Within any mixed community there is the potential for conflict especially in Cyprus, so here I agree with you, we either decide that it's too risky and go our separate ways (probably living like bad neighbours for the next 100 years) or we take the gamble and go for it realising that there will probably be instances of conflict but that these are outweighed by the benefits that unification will bring.

These restrictions maybe be reviewed if all goes well and both communities are living together in harmony then if both agree they can be removed alltogether but it should be the will of the people not forced.

Sure, this is a good way of doing things in general, for say security arrangements, the political framework, specific voting rights and business law, education, tourism, pretty much everything. Except...on the issue of residence rights where I have to continue to disagree. Permanent derrogations on residence will be make the unification of Cyprus an absolute sham imo.

[Viewpoint]

Alexis

Within any mixed community there is the potential for conflict especially in Cyprus, so here I agree with you, we either decide that it's too risky and go our separate ways (probably living like bad neighbours for the next 100 years) or we take the gamble and go for it realising that there will probably be instances of conflict but that these are outweighed by the benefits that unification will bring.

Think you have hit the nail on the head here, how do we decide? if our total lack of trust, past track record and negotiation ability is anything to go by we dont stand a chance in a united Cyprus. Surely we should admit that this marriage cannot be forced and that our unwillingness to even negotiate in goodfaith is a sign that neither side will be committed to any united solution plan we may come up with. Why take that risk?

[Alexis]

Why take that risk?

We take the risk because of the benefits unification brings to Cyprus.

For the TCs and GCs, increased prosperity + hope for the future.
For the TCs, security without the need for huge numbers of Turkish troops.
For the GCs, a return to homes for the displaced refugees.
For the TCs and GCs, the peace of mind that comes from knowing that your neighbour (and we would still be neighbours) does not hate your guts.

[cypezokyli]

Within any mixed community there is the potential for conflict especially in Cyprus, so here I agree with you, we either decide that it's too risky and go our separate ways (probably living like bad neighbours for the next 100 years) or we take the gamble and go for it realising that there will probably be instances of conflict but that these are outweighed by the benefits that unification will bring.

indeed hit the nail on the head...

[cypezokyli]

i have argued this all along and also given suggestions of how I think this issue can be addressed but for many GCs like Kifeas who argues that trust is just a pretext TCs hide behind who do not want union but division.

do you think that after we build trust u will give up the conspirace theories?
its one thing to say...fights could take place bc we dont trust each other. but another to argue that we have a secret plan in buying you out of cyprus... come on

what would you do to encourage TCs to trust GCs?

i have agreed with your proposals vp. we even argued against piratis and kifeas...remember ?
but as i wrote above u have also to understand that accepting the tc veto or the guarantor powers for a gc already shows that he trusts and he is willing to give it a shot..

Do you really even having read many of the posts on this forum, the more I read the more I despair that we will ever find a solıtion other than recognized partition.
I dont think either community has matured enough to be flexible in finding a solution and maybe the hidden agenda of both sides is the status quo we live today??

i cannot say u r wrong... but i really hope u are.
its just i am not loosing hope, thats all

[Viewpoint]

Why take that risk?

We take the risk because of the benefits unification brings to Cyprus.

For the TCs and GCs, increased prosperity + hope for the future.
For the TCs, security without the need for huge numbers of Turkish troops.
For the GCs, a return to homes for the displaced refugees.
For the TCs and GCs, the peace of mind that comes from knowing that your neighbour (and we would still be neighbours) does not hate your guts.

Alexis under normal circumstances I would agree with you but due to mistrust of GCs and vice versa we do not have a basis to achieve the above, we do not have the capacity as Cypriots to create the necessary circumstancies to to build bridges and trust, when will you accept that we Cypriots cannot agree any solution to unite, it just doesnt exist. One that make you say YES will make us say NO and vice versa. Do we go on like we are for the next 30+ years or do we just go our seperate ways?