Cyprus-Forum.com

[andytandreou]

If you feel threatened by that fact then you can stay as a minority in Northern Cyprus where your wife-beating, Kurd-hating, Armenian-killing buddies will keep you company.

You are such a jingoist. I feel sick.

Don't feel sick garbitsch. You replied to the meaningless afterthought which I included in my post and completely ignored the rest of it, as per your best intrests. That is something to feel sick about, not the fact that I'm a patriotic person.

If you want to have a monologue about the Annan plan and its great virtues then go right ahead, next time I'll just let you talk to yourself!

[garbitsch]

I did not talk about Annan plan. Tell me when I did say I still want it! Just watch your own language and your accusations.

[garbitsch]

I read your whole post. Basically you are claiming our salvation is in the hands of Greek Cypriots, not in the hands of "basically" barbarian Turks.

[Viewpoint]

andytandreou obviously you hate the Turks, Turkish Army and the Annan plan and are unable to logically discuss any of these issues.
From your arguements I gather your viewpoint is a GC run united Cyprus with TCs as a minority.

get real "NO WAY"

[Piratis]

So the Junta and the Greek Cypriots did never pursue the goal of Enosis. Or it was their right to do so... That's why you do not include this to your explanation of the Cyprus Problem. And you ask for justice. How dare you?

Before 1960 Cyprus (then an area, not an independent country) was a British Colony with an 82% Greek population.

If the colonial rule was going to end then the people of this area should have been given the right to make their own choices in a democratic way. If the colonialists allowed that, then yes, it is very probable that the majority of the people of this island would have voted for union with Greece. Do you think this would not be just? Do you think that countries that join the EU with much smaller majority is something unjust?

Do you think that the "Declaration on the Granting of Independence" and resolution 1541 (XV) are also unjust when they state:

A Non-Self-Governing Territory can be said to have
reached a full measure of self-government by:
a. Emergence as a sovereign independent State; or
b. Free association with an independent State; or
c. Integration with an independent State.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

So how dare you tell me that if the 82% of the population wanted "c", that this was something "unjust"? And accepting not to have that was a major compromise for us. I believe you should appreciate this, instead of trying to force even more compromises from us.

[Viewpoint]

So democratically the 82% majority vote to have the 18% minority expelled from the island, using your own words "Do you think this would not be just?"

Cant you still comprehend that your line of thought was the reason why we had all these problems in the first place, 2005 but still the same mentality....

You cannot force a negative on a minority you have civil unrest that will lead to internal fighting and ulimately war.. ring any bells????

[andytandreou]

I read your whole post. Basically you are claiming our salvation is in the hands of Greek Cypriots, not in the hands of "basically" barbarian Turks.

Garbitsch, why do you think you need salvation from anyone? You are a minority in Northern Cyprus and you will be a minority in Southern Cyprus too. You appear lost with respect to the meaning of minority! You seriously don't know what it means, do you? It just means that Turkish Cypriots will be less than Greek Cypriots! Simple. I can't change this, only you can by having more children. It doesn't mean that we'll treat you like a non-Cypriot! You don't need salvation from anybody. You just need to be part of a country which respects your human rights (right to property, free speech etc). A country which respects your language and cultural heritage and a country with a strong justice system able to cope with illegal immigration and settlers so we can continue to self-preserve. In Southern Cyprus you already have Turkish as a language, seats in parliament, Mosques, religious freedom and you even have a vice-president (even though I don't agree with that). When you stop seeing yourself as Turkish and start seeing yourself as Cypriot then you will see my point of view. You are a Cypriot with a different cultural heritage to other Cypriots but you are still Cypriot.

andytandreou obviously you hate the Turks, Turkish Army and the Annan plan and are unable to logically discuss any of these issues.
From your arguments I gather your viewpoint is a GC run united Cyprus with TCs as a minority.

get real "NO WAY"

Viewpoint, I don't OBVIOUSLY hate the Turks and you should back-up your arguments if you're going to say something like that. I DO hate the Turkish army with a passion, just as much as I hate the Greek Cypriot army. They both have no purpose on this island and are an enormous drain to our finances. Everybody hates the Annan plan and you know this from the high "NO" percentage it received in the referendum so don't say it like it's a bad thing... How would you feel if I constantly wanted to have a discussion about who will become president of the USA in 2005? Bush or Kerry? Do you see any point in talking about the US presidential election in 2005? Especially, since we already know that Bush became president? What’s done is done.

The dumbest thing I've heard today has to be the phrase "Greek Cypriot run united Cyprus"... Really how silly is that?... Since there won't be any distinction between Cypriots. In a country where there are no distinctions between races and ethnic backgrounds, why would a Turkish Cypriot feel like they couldn't run for president or become a high school teacher? If all Cypriots are free to follow their own religion and way of life under the umbrella and democratic freedoms of Europe then there is no issue of domination.

What I don’t understand and what hurts me is the fact that there are just as many Turkish Cypriots in the UK as there are in Northern Cyprus but in the UK they don’t have Turkish as a language, there are hardly any mosques, T/C are a still a minority but they live happily with G/C’s and are happy with their current way of life. I ask you… Why do you think that things would be different in Cyprus? I don’t understand where you get this immense desire to form another state within this tiny island!!!

[Piratis]

So democratically the 82% majority vote to have the 18% minority expelled from the island, using your own words "Do you think this would not be just?"

Expelling and ethnic cleansing is what you did, not us. As I quoted already, "Integration with an independent State." is a rightful option for territories liberated from the colonialists. Such an integration wouldn't violate the human rights of Turkish Cypriots and it should have been an option for the Cypriot people to choose, if they wanted, in a democratic way.

So stop making ridiculous comparisons. Would you make the same kind of comparison for countries that voted to join the EU?

According to your "logic" the majority can take no kind of decision because there will always be a minority that will disagree. Of course the majority can not take any kind of decision that would violate the human rights of any minority, but it can perfectly take other kinds of decisions. Thats what democracy is all about.

[Viewpoint]

So democratically the 82% majority vote to have the 18% minority expelled from the island, using your own words "Do you think this would not be just?"

Expelling and ethnic cleansing is what you did, not us. As I quoted already, "Integration with an independent State." is a rightful option for territories liberated from the colonialists. Such an integration wouldn't violate the human rights of Turkish Cypriots and it should have been an option for the Cypriot people to choose, if they wanted, in a democratic way.

So stop making ridiculous comparisons. Would you make the same kind of comparison for countries that voted to join the EU?

According to your "logic" the majority can take no kind of decision because there will always be a minority that will disagree. Of course the majority can not take any kind of decision that would violate the human rights of any minority, but it can perfectly take other kinds of decisions. Thats what democracy is all about.

So according to your logic we should have no other choice but to accept what they majority want, being Enosis but surely history has given a good lesson in what can happen if you attempt to force what the majority wants on a minority that minority has "mutually agreed partnership rights", why is it so difficult to register that we are not like any other minorities eg indians in UK, we have rights that are unique to our situation and which you cling onto so dearly today, what would you do if we returned and claimed those rights, woudl you still try to bring about and enforce the Akritas plan? stating that we were given to many rights?

Plus isnt the effect of the decision of the majority on the majority important, eg entering the EU is a positive for all, whereas union with Greece is a positive for one but not the other. You appear so hypercrictical about human rights where were these values you cliam to be champions of today in the 1960s when GCs were economically strangling TCs and encouraging them to go work and live abroad. Where was your feeling of sudden Cypriotness that you hide behind today?

[Viewpoint]

andytandreou

Everybody hates the Annan plan and you know this from the high "NO" percentage it received in the referendum so don't say it like it's a bad thing...

65% of Turkish Cypriots and
24% of Greek Cypriots dont

EU, UN, UK, Turkey, USA, Greece and the majority of the world dont either.

The dumbest thing I've heard today has to be the phrase "Greek Cypriot run united Cyprus"... Really how silly is that?... Since there won't be any distinction between Cypriots. In a country where there are no distinctions between races and ethnic backgrounds, why would a Turkish Cypriot feel like they couldn't run for president or become a high school teacher? If all Cypriots are free to follow their own religion and way of life under the umbrella and democratic freedoms of Europe then there is no issue of domination.

Your utopia of just Cypriots is a long way off and will take many many years to evlove. In the meantime we need safety valves from a community that has in the past shown a reluctance to sharing the island with us let alone any power.
You have to come to terms with the fact that we have a totally different situation today than we had with the 1960 agreements, we have a divided island with 2 equal communities and any future negotiations on a united Cyprus will be based on a BBF as per the plan you hate so much. So your thesis of we are the majority dont worry we will all live together and no harm or erosion will come to TCs under the EU umbrella does not cut any ice with TCs. We want clear cut guidelines so that each community knows exactly where they stand so that in the future we will not have any problems that occurred in the past.

Where was your Cypriotness and togetherness in the 1960s have you just found it?

What I don’t understand and what hurts me is the fact that there are just as many Turkish Cypriots in the UK as there are in Northern Cyprus but in the UK they don’t have Turkish as a language, there are hardly any mosques, T/C are a still a minority but they live happily with G/C’s and are happy with their current way of life. I ask you… Why do you think that things would be different in Cyprus? I don’t understand where you get this immense desire to form another state within this tiny island!!!

They go to live in the UK knowingly they accept the laws of that land which are not forced upon them, they embrace and accept everything that country has to offer and they know that they have no other rights because unlike TCs in Cyprus they did not rule the UK and do not have a partnership agreement with the UK Government.

Cyprus is totally different we have a bad history and no trust, the fact that the gap gets wider every day is clear indication that the solution we seek is not out there and that we should concentrate on going our own ways which to a great extent we did in 1974.
The reality that we Cypriots are unable, inept and not committed to finding a solution will hit you sooner or later, like is has done to many Cypriots since the referendum.