Cyprus-Forum.com

[garbitsch]

I disagree to some extent, any solution will mean sacrifices on both ends.

Not all GC's will be able to return home, at the same time i can't expect 200,000 GC's flocking over to their former homes as they are comfortable in the south. However, the Turks will have to give up alot of teritory and compesation and there will be huge population movements in the North, some settlers will leave but a significant amount will stay. Turkish troops will leave over a quicker time frame, however there will be a contigent of 700 to stay. These are some of the sacrifices that will be made by either side.

However, once each other side appreciates what each other is giving up, i think then they will realise that sacrifice should make an effective working country, in which both communities can live side by side in peace and prosper. And if a two state solution is the way, lets do it as it will be much better than the status quo and we should be thinking about making a prosperous future rarther than trying to regain everything pre-1974 or holding onto the fruits of war.

I dont think each side realises how much of a sacrifice it is untill they think of the person in each others shoes. I mean if i was a TC, for the Turkish army to leave that has kept peace for the TC's and to have huge Turks moving around and out the north would be quite worrying. What would happen to myself and security? At the same time a GC would proberbly think that it's not enough as they want back everything they had and was pre-74 and would be deeply bitter.

Over the past three decades, both sides are to blame for their stubberness. But without being too biased, i feel the Turkish side has been the side more at fault for being an obstacle.

I mean, i was amazed of the latest Annan plan that Turkey was actually prepared to do something positive for once and Denktash was out the picture!!! It was radical new thinking from Ankara of which sent certain Turkish parlimentrians balistic, paritcular Ecevit. So this made me give Turkey lots of repsect.

However, despite the one sided plan, I was saddened that despite Turkey's positive efforts they didn't go all the way and sieze the opportunity to really solve the problem by tackling more effectively core issues.

However, i belive a fairer plan will emerge over the next several years as Turkey starts to soften and behave more reasonable through EU negotiations. However, at the same time, don't expect a miracle plan!!! There will be sacrifices!!!!

One observation i made during the referendum, is that most GC's living in England, particularly the older generation, were for the plan and labelled the GC's in Cyprus as dumb for missing the opporunity. However, the GC viewpoint in Cypru was exactly the opposite.

I admit that there are some people out there who are willing to devote themselves to the solution, as i read nickp's posts. More constructive than others. I am totally with you.

[Bananiot]

But, I voted different from Denktash. His agents I presume voted like him. They said a resounding "no" to the solution just like Denktash who thought that the solution would mean the end of TC's in Cyprus.

Labwolf wrote:

From a foreigner's point of view, living for 6 years in Cyprus now, I'm not that hopefull for a future united Cyprus, because there are too may Cypriots who never left the island since they were born. Without no doubt for me this was only possible if it were up only to Cypriots living abroad. They have experienced high levels of multi-cultural communities living together under the same roof.

I basically agree with the above (obviously Labwolf is also Denktash's agent) but furthermore, as I pointed out, even many of the GC's that lived abroad exhibit narrow mindness and ego centric behaviour, because of an inate xenophobic attitude which gets worse exponentially if it is related to Turks, the ... perpetual enemy.

[Nickp]

GC's that lived abroad exhibit narrow mindness and ego centric behaviour, because of an inate xenophobic attitude which gets worse exponentially if it is related to Turks, the ... perpetual enemy.

I do agree with this 'ego centric' behaviour, generally towards almost everything. Compared to other countries, there almost like 'spoilt brats.'
However, in a situation where they are predominantly in the legal right, just amplifies this 'attitude.'

[Piratis]

I basically agree with the above (obviously Labwolf is also Denktash's agent) but furthermore, as I pointed out, even many of the GC's that lived abroad exhibit narrow mindness and ego centric behaviour, because of an inate xenophobic attitude which gets worse exponentially if it is related to Turks, the ... perpetual enemy.

And who are xenophobic in our case? Those that want both communities mixed in one united Cyprus, or those that want the two communities separated into "north" and "south"?

For us the TCs are not "xenoi" (foreigners) they are our compatriots. On the other hand you want to make them foreigners by gifting to them part of our country as their own separate country.

What we want is a united democratic Cyprus were TCs and GCs are equal citizens without racist discriminations. There is absolutely no xenophobia in our case. Unless "xenophobia" for you is the fact that we do not accept to give away our properties and legal rights. If thats the case, then let me know of the country were its citizens are not "xenophobic" so I will go there to gift to me their properties.

[Nikiforos]

However, i belive a fairer plan will emerge over the next several years as Turkey starts to soften and behave more reasonable through EU negotiations. However, at the same time, don't expect a miracle plan!!! There will be sacrifices!!!!

I hope that history will prove me wrong but I don't believe that Turkey will "soften" during the course of EU accession negotiations (IF indeed they do get started.) The prevailing Turkish and Muslim values are not compatible with EU values. That is not to say that Turks and the greater Muslim world are "wrong" in their values. It is the morally bankrupt, nominally "Christian" West that has perverted its own values. It seems that Muslims are generally stronger in their beliefs than Christians are in theirs.

[garbitsch]

Crap!

[Nickp]

I hope that history will prove me wrong but I don't believe that Turkey will "soften" during the course of EU accession negotiations (IF indeed they do get started.) The prevailing Turkish and Muslim values are not compatible with EU values. That is not to say that Turks and the greater Muslim world are "wrong" in their values. It is the morally bankrupt, nominally "Christian" West that has perverted its own values. It seems that Muslims are generally stronger in their beliefs than Christians are in theirs.

Are you serious? Greece and Cyprus are like hardcore Christian countries.
The EU will make Turkey soften, i mean if it weren't for the EU we wouldn't of even had that Annan Plan we had a referendum on. Can you image the Turks putting such a plan forward, even though unfair, without EU incentive. Does this not show they are softning..?

[Viewpoint]

I hope that history will prove me wrong but I don't believe that Turkey will "soften" during the course of EU accession negotiations (IF indeed they do get started.) The prevailing Turkish and Muslim values are not compatible with EU values. That is not to say that Turks and the greater Muslim world are "wrong" in their values. It is the morally bankrupt, nominally "Christian" West that has perverted its own values. It seems that Muslims are generally stronger in their beliefs than Christians are in theirs.

Are you serious? Greece and Cyprus are like hardcore Christian countries.
The EU will make Turkey soften, i mean if it weren't for the EU we wouldn't of even had that Annan Plan we had a referendum on. Can you image the Turks putting such a plan forward, even though unfair, without EU incentive. Does this not show they are softning..?

But Turkey will only take so much crap thrown at it and will only tollerate chnages where they believe it is in their national interest. The Turkeish people including the TCs have lost their belief in the EU which they now view as a christian club with double standards and not a man of their word. All this fuss leading upto tomorrows date is after thay had agreed fiven the word and signature for talks to commence on 3rd October. Can you trust such an organisation who constantly changes its own decisions its creditability has been brought into questioned and the Turkish nation should not forget that not entering the EU is not the end of the world and that there are many more alternatives for a growing, and dynamic economy with a young and productive workforce like Turkeys.

But with then end of Turkey' s EU aspirations would also come the end of any hopes for a solution in Cyprus.

[Nickp]

But Turkey will only take so much crap thrown at it and will only tollerate chnages where they believe it is in their national interest. The Turkeish people including the TCs have lost their belief in the EU which they now view as a christian club with double standards and not a man of their word. All this fuss leading upto tomorrows date is after thay had agreed fiven the word and signature for talks to commence on 3rd October. Can you trust such an organisation who constantly changes its own decisions its creditability has been brought into questioned and the Turkish nation should not forget that not entering the EU is not the end of the world and that there are many more alternatives for a growing, and dynamic economy with a young and productive workforce like Turkeys.

But with then end of Turkey' s EU aspirations would also come the end of any hopes for a solution in Cyprus.

I agree that too much thrown at Turkey could cause them to walk away. However, in all honesty, lets be frank, Turkey is a unique condidate with lots of problems and issues that concern the EU unlike other previous member states. Remember this is politics, who in all honesty always keeps there word or does things for their own interests, so i dont think you can question their credibility too much at this stage.