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Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1972?

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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Panicos UK » Fri May 11, 2012 8:49 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.


Why don't you show us some of the evidence you used for your dissertation; because the stuff you are finding just now, does not pass muster.


Two primary sources and a secondary source. What exactly are you after? Again I invite you to research the matter yourself and see what you can come up with.
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri May 11, 2012 9:42 pm

Panicos UK wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.


Why don't you show us some of the evidence you used for your dissertation; because the stuff you are finding just now, does not pass muster.


Two primary sources and a secondary source. What exactly are you after? Again I invite you to research the matter yourself and see what you can come up with.


I have "researched" it and concluded you are mistaken in drawing up such a claim as have others. You and Lordo (who first brought this up yesterday :wink: ) are the only ones who think otherwise. So how about the stuff you got your MA for? Surely more than 3? It can't be those you just found today:


Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1
by Panicos UK » Fri May 11, 2012 3:00 pm

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... 20'71.html

Don't know how reliable this site is. Couldn't find anything on the RoC PIO website.
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Panicos UK » Fri May 11, 2012 9:47 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.


Why don't you show us some of the evidence you used for your dissertation; because the stuff you are finding just now, does not pass muster.


Two primary sources and a secondary source. What exactly are you after? Again I invite you to research the matter yourself and see what you can come up with.


I have "researched" it and concluded you are mistaken in drawing up such a claim. So how about the stuff you got your MA for? Surely more than 3? It can't be those you just found today:


Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1
by Panicos UK » Fri May 11, 2012 3:00 pm

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... 20'71.html

Don't know how reliable this site is. Couldn't find anything on the RoC PIO website.


Well lets have this 'research' then (quotation marks, not speech marks darling).

Name and cite your sources. If you can, I'll stand corrected. I wrote my dissertation in 2005 from different sources. Let's have your 'source'
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri May 11, 2012 10:12 pm

Panicos UK wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.


Why don't you show us some of the evidence you used for your dissertation; because the stuff you are finding just now, does not pass muster.


Two primary sources and a secondary source. What exactly are you after? Again I invite you to research the matter yourself and see what you can come up with.


I have "researched" it and concluded you are mistaken in drawing up such a claim. So how about the stuff you got your MA for? Surely more than 3? It can't be those you just found today:


Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1
by Panicos UK » Fri May 11, 2012 3:00 pm

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... 20'71.html

Don't know how reliable this site is. Couldn't find anything on the RoC PIO website.


Well lets have this 'research' then (quotation marks, not speech marks darling).

Name and cite your sources. If you can, I'll stand corrected. I wrote my dissertation in 2005 from different sources. Let's have your 'source'


Erm, it's negative. I cannot find anything to substantiate your claims. So how can I show you a negative result? I already explained in great detail on your 'status quo' thread how this claim (first made by Lordo) was unreliable and the "sources" unreachable.

It's your thread, please provide some credible evidence.
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Panicos UK » Sat May 12, 2012 1:52 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:

Well lets have this 'research' then (quotation marks, not speech marks darling).

Name and cite your sources. If you can, I'll stand corrected. I wrote my dissertation in 2005 from different sources. Let's have your 'source'


Erm, it's negative. I cannot find anything to substantiate your claims. So how can I show you a negative result? I already explained in great detail on your 'status quo' thread how this claim (first made by Lordo) was unreliable and the "sources" unreachable.

It's your thread, please provide some credible evidence.


Please can you define credible? I'm not sure we agree on what this word means. Also, where did you look? How many sources did you consult? Did you find any information on the intercommunal talks 68-72? The internet? Did you check it? If you did you should have found something surely? You're taking the word 'obtuse' to new and dangerous levels this evening my dear. So you're saying you couldn't find anything to dispute my sources so they can't be credible? Again I invite you to find something to discredit my sources (this is I think the 5th of 6th request).

Again, here is one website documenting the evidence:

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... %2771.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/clerides ... t%202.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... t%203.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/clerides ... t%204.html
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Sotos » Sat May 12, 2012 9:23 am

Panicos UK wrote:
Sotos wrote:From Makarios letter
But, by accepting local government, as proposed, the enclaves, are not dissolved. On the contrary, they are made permanent and are legitimised. It is true that most of the 13 points of my old proposals, which were formulated under different circumstances, are accepted. The exchange which is demanded, in any event is too large and its acceptance would present the Zurich and London Agreements as a better situation, despite the fact that we do not desire a return to them.


So the TCs didn't accept the 13 points. They would accept them only on the condition that they got local government in return which would result on something which would be worst than the Zurich and London Agreements.


No, they were prepared to accept the 13 points, BUT they wanted something in return. According to Makarios giving the Turish Cypriots local government was a step too far. If you believe what Clerides says in his memoirs he tried to persuade Makarios that granting the Turkish Cypriots local government was (on balance) a compromise worth accepting and was definitely not worse than the London Zurich agreements. Makarios didn't agree. He thought it might lead to 'disguised partition'. It's a contentious issue. Why didn't Clerides speak out about this?


So they would only accept the 13 points if we accepted disguised partition. And since we didn't accept disguised partition they DID NOT accept the 13 points. So the answer to the question of your topic "Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1972?" is NO.
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby kimon07 » Sat May 12, 2012 9:56 am

Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.



Being very simple minded I have a very naive question to ask. If the TCs accepted the 13 points then why did they withdraw from the RoC and caused the inter communal conflict accusing Makarios of violating the constitution unilaterally?

Concerning Lordos comment that Clerides and Denktash accepted them but Makarios rejected them. Are we trying to play it stupid here? Clerides and Makarios were the same at that time. Who ever heard of Makarios rejecting his own proposals after the latter had been accepted by the Turks? Jesus!
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby kimon07 » Sat May 12, 2012 10:24 am

I think the book below will help you find your answers both in regard to the question of the topic as well as in regard to the intentions of both Britain and Turkey and of how Makarios was trapped to offer them excuses.


The Bloody truth about Cyprus.

http://www.freedomjustice.com.cy/cmspag ... 72ea65e4c6

English part
C6: “The 13 points” page 326 (abstract: Sir Arthur Clark had calculated accurately, that the Turkish Cypriots would use the Makarios’s proposal for amendments
of the unworkable elements of the Constitution, as a pretext to proceed with their long organised plan for partition
)

C6: “The 13 points”

Another Turkish contention is that “Makarios was to blame
for the 1963 events, because of his decision to modify the
constitution, hence his 13 point amendments”.
Sir Arthur Clark, the British High Commissioner in Cyprus in
1963, was directly involved with the modifications.
Archbishop Makarios wanted to modify the unworkable
Constitution and Sir Arthur Clark was ordered by London to
overlook these amendments, in order that they “would affect
as little as possible the Turkish interests”.

However, Sir Arthur Clark in different reports and discussions
in London regarded Archbishop Makarios’s decision to amend
the most unworkable points of the Constitution, as totally
logical and justified.

On 10 March 1971, Kieran Prendergast136, who was working
in the Foreign & Commonwealth Office at the time, was
asked to prepare the full story around Makarios’s 13-point
amendment proposal. This request came from the new British
High Commissioner in Nicosia Robert Humphrey Edmonds,
who was interested in knowing the real facts, after Archbishop
Makarios had told him that “he was guided in drafting them
by Sir Arthur Clark”.

Kieran Prendergast wrote:
“In Y.E.’s letter of 22 February to Mr. Seconde (Foreign
Office) below, Y.E. gave the Archbishop’s account of
Sir Arthur Clark’s involvement in the drafting of the
thirteen points.
You also said, that you would be interested to know
whether FCO records confirmed His Beatitude’s
version.
I have been through our records of the period. The
sequence of events is as follows:
a) In the Despatch dated 17 October 1963 to HIM,
the Ambassador at Ankara, the Foreign Secretary
said, that it had become clear that the Greek
Cypriot leadership were dissatisfied with some
of the basic Articles of the Cyprus constitution.
136. Later, Kieran Prendergast was made “Sir” and, during the Annan Plan
period, visited Cyprus as Acting Secretary General of the United Nations.
The Archbishop had hinted, that the Treaties of
Guarantee and Alliance should be denounced as
incompatible with the independent status of Cyprus.
Her Majesty’s Government was concerned about
the serious situation, which would follow failure
to settle present difficulties amicably. H.M. the
Ambassador at Ankara was instructed to persuade
the Turkish Government to agree, that reasonable
proposals for a modification of the more unworkable
points of the Constitution should be discussed.
Sir Arthur Clark was instructed to warn the Archbishop
about the dangers of unilateral action. He was to
urge him to proceed by means of discussion and
negotiation, and, as a first measure, to formulate
proposals in writing, of a kind which would offer the
prospect of constructive discussion with the Turks.
He was also to try to ensure that the resulting
proposals were reasonable and fair to Turkish
interests.
b) Sir Arthur Clark reported on 31 October 1963, that
the Archbishop had received his representations
constructively and had agreed ‘to formulate
proposals for presentation to Dr. Kutchuk’.
c) Sir Arthur Clark reported separately, that the
Archbishop had volunteered ‘that the Cyprus Foreign
Minister should discuss with him [Sir Arthur Clark]
proposals, during drafting to be put to the Turks.
This proposal was accepted by the Commonwealth
Office.
d) Sir Arthur Clark also put to the Commonwealth
Office his own ideas, about what constituted
‘reasonable proposals to remedy difficulties over
the application of the Constitution’.
There are ten of these, eight of which are broadly
comparable to proposals made by the Archbishop
in the thirteen points.
e) Sir Arthur Clark was offered the opportunity to
comment in writing on the thirteen points,
at two stages in their drafting.
On 14 November 1963 he replied to a letter by the
Archbishop dated 12 November 1963, enclosing
the thirteen points in skeletal form. Sir Arthur Clark
offered comments of substance on these points.
On 26 November Sir Arthur Clark sent Mr. Spyros
Kyprianou [the Cyprus Foreign Minister] a detailed
commentary on a full draft of the thirteen points.
Some of the suggested amendments were written
into the finalised version of the thirteen points.
It could, therefore, be argued that Sir Arthur Clark
(albeit on instructions from H.M. Government)
did indeed encourage the President [Archbishop
Makarios] to put forward proposals to the Vice-
President [Dr. Fazil Kutchuk] for the amendment
of the 1960 Constitution […].”

London’s deepest worry was the status of the British Bases
in Cyprus. Any attempt to alter the London and Zurich
agreements would automatically affect this status, a possibility
the British wanted to avoid, also because it would deprive
Turkey of its “right” to intervene [as planned] to impose its
partition plans. Sir Arthur Clark and the British Government were fully
aware of the Turkish plans and intentions
(as revealed by
the captured document in Minister Plumer’s office137), long
before the December 1963 Turkish attacks.
Sir Arthur Clark had calculated accurately, that the Turkish
Cypriots would use the Makarios’s proposal for amendments
of the unworkable elements of the Constitution, as a pretext
to proceed with their long organised plan for partition.
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Panicos UK » Sat May 12, 2012 12:30 pm

kimon07 wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.



Being very simple minded I have a very naive question to ask. If the TCs accepted the 13 points then why did they withdraw from the RoC and caused the inter communal conflict accusing Makarios of violating the constitution unilaterally?

Concerning Lordos comment that Clerides and Denktash accepted them but Makarios rejected them. Are we trying to play it stupid here? Clerides and Makarios were the same at that time. Who ever heard of Makarios rejecting his own proposals after the latter had been accepted by the Turks? Jesus!


We're interested in the situation during the intercommunal talks (1968-1972). The acceptance of the 13 points came in 1972 (9 years after the Turkish Cypriot leadership tried to bring down the government). Do you have any info on these talks?
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Re: Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1

Postby Panicos UK » Sat May 12, 2012 12:42 pm

Sotos wrote:
Panicos UK wrote:
Sotos wrote:From Makarios letter
But, by accepting local government, as proposed, the enclaves, are not dissolved. On the contrary, they are made permanent and are legitimised. It is true that most of the 13 points of my old proposals, which were formulated under different circumstances, are accepted. The exchange which is demanded, in any event is too large and its acceptance would present the Zurich and London Agreements as a better situation, despite the fact that we do not desire a return to them.


So the TCs didn't accept the 13 points. They would accept them only on the condition that they got local government in return which would result on something which would be worst than the Zurich and London Agreements.


No, they were prepared to accept the 13 points, BUT they wanted something in return. According to Makarios giving the Turish Cypriots local government was a step too far. If you believe what Clerides says in his memoirs he tried to persuade Makarios that granting the Turkish Cypriots local government was (on balance) a compromise worth accepting and was definitely not worse than the London Zurich agreements. Makarios didn't agree. He thought it might lead to 'disguised partition'. It's a contentious issue. Why didn't Clerides speak out about this?


So they would only accept the 13 points if we accepted disguised partition. And since we didn't accept disguised partition they DID NOT accept the 13 points. So the answer to the question of your topic "Did the Turkish Cypriots accept Makarios' 13 points in 1972?" is NO.


Well it depends on who you agree with, Clerides or Makarios. Makarios thought that it might lead to disguised partition, not that it would constitute disguised partition. Clerides tried to persuade him that he was wrong (if you believe Clerides). What Makarios agreed to in 1977 was a much more progressed situation in terms of Turkish Cypriot autonomy than what the Turkish Cypriots wanted in 1972. Also the Turkish Cypriots were negotiating! They were prepared to give up most of their rights granted them under the RoC constitution (whether or not you agree that they deserved them) in exchange for some local government. So the answer is YES, they did accept the 13 points, but not unconditionally. Don't forget when Makarios initially proposed the 13 points in 1963 he expected 'discussion' on the issue. That would obviously have entailed some kind of negotiation wouldn't it?
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