Cyprus-Forum.com

[Lordo]

I signed one agreement which excluded Enosis I will not sign another.

Why should 2 agreements be made about the same thing? Makarios proposed 13 points. If TCs accepted those 13 points then only those points would change. Did he ask anything to change about enosis in any of the 13 points? NO!

The original 60 agreement excluded ENOSIS. The new agreement did not mention it which meant it was still part of the agreement.

It really is not rocket science. Is it.

[Panicos UK]

Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.

Osman, I don't remember any of the 13 points being about "Turkish Cypriot community local government" and I don't remember the TC minority ever accepting the 13 points. Your link is just a letter with the personal views of Denktash who says that nothing in it is binding... and then there is whole page of conditions and demands! Just of one of the usual tactics of Denktash... make demands without binding himself on anything and then come back to ask for more. We've seen this a million times.

Absolutely correct, Sotos. No one has provided any evidence to support these claims.

I'm sorry but this is a blatant lie. 1) There is a letter from Makarios saying that the Turkish Cypriots are willing to accept his 1963 13 points, 2) Clerides makes clear reference to this in his memoirs and 3) Denktash's letter confirms it

By my count, this is 3 (1,2 yes 3) pieces of evidence. Some people on this forum have some serious psychological problems. Have we seen any evidence to contradict/disprove the claim that the Turkish Cypriots were prepared to accept the 13 points, no! we haven't.

Are the people in denial on this forum willing to accept that intercommunal talks took place between 1968 and 1972? Or is there no evidence for that either?

[Sotos]

Where is the official document from the TC side that says that they accept the 13 points? You just showed as a letter which says "hey this is just a personal letter I am sending, nothing binding" and then goes on to a list of demands.

[Sotos]

I signed one agreement which excluded Enosis I will not sign another.

Why should 2 agreements be made about the same thing? Makarios proposed 13 points. If TCs accepted those 13 points then only those points would change. Did he ask anything to change about enosis in any of the 13 points? NO!

The original 60 agreement excluded ENOSIS. The new agreement did not mention it which meant it was still part of the agreement.

It really is not rocket science. Is it.

Exactly! So why did you want Makarios to sign the same thing twice then?

[Panicos UK]

Why would there be an official document? The talks ended in 1972 without success. These were closed meetings and the press wasn't briefed on developments. It's similar to the talks going on at present. They're not releasing official documents are they? Apart from a few leaks, we haven't got a clue as to the negotiating positions/proposals. Did you read the next page?

[GreekIslandGirl]

Why would there be an official document? The talks ended in 1972 without success. These were closed meetings and the press wasn't briefed on developments. It's similar to the talks going on at present. They're not releasing official documents are they? Apart from a few leaks, we haven't got a clue as to the negotiating positions/proposals. Did you read the next page?

So how do you know all this, "Panicos", regarding what Makarios accepted or didn't accept and precisely what the TCs were supposedly conceding? Since by your own account above, there are no official documents or press briefings.

[Panicos UK]

1) There is a letter from Makarios saying that the Turkish Cypriots are willing to accept practically all of his 1963 '13 points',
2) Clerides makes clear reference to this in his memoirs
3) Denktash's letter confirms it

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... %2771.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/clerides ... t%202.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... t%203.html

and

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/clerides ... t%204.html


I can see why it's uncomfortable for you to concede this point, it is after all Makarios' biggest mistake. I still challenge you to research the matter yourself and correct me if I am wrong.

[Sotos]

From Makarios letter

But, by accepting local government, as proposed, the enclaves, are not dissolved. On the contrary, they are made permanent and are legitimised. It is true that most of the 13 points of my old proposals, which were formulated under different circumstances, are accepted. The exchange which is demanded, in any event is too large and its acceptance would present the Zurich and London Agreements as a better situation, despite the fact that we do not desire a return to them.

So the TCs didn't accept the 13 points. They would accept them only on the condition that they got local government in return which would result on something which would be worst than the Zurich and London Agreements.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Again, some fierce debate on this issue. The research I carried out for my MA dissertation was pretty conclusive in that the TC leadership did eventually agree on these points but that Makarios was not satisfied as he wasn't prepared to grant the Turkish Cypriot community local government. Again, I'm interested to see what people think on this issue.

Why don't you show us some of the evidence you used for your dissertation; because the stuff you are finding just now, does not pass muster.

[Panicos UK]

From Makarios letter

But, by accepting local government, as proposed, the enclaves, are not dissolved. On the contrary, they are made permanent and are legitimised. It is true that most of the 13 points of my old proposals, which were formulated under different circumstances, are accepted. The exchange which is demanded, in any event is too large and its acceptance would present the Zurich and London Agreements as a better situation, despite the fact that we do not desire a return to them.

So the TCs didn't accept the 13 points. They would accept them only on the condition that they got local government in return which would result on something which would be worst than the Zurich and London Agreements.

No, they were prepared to accept the 13 points, BUT they wanted something in return. According to Makarios giving the Turish Cypriots local government was a step too far. If you believe what Clerides says in his memoirs he tried to persuade Makarios that granting the Turkish Cypriots local government was (on balance) a compromise worth accepting and was definitely not worse than the London Zurich agreements. Makarios didn't agree. He thought it might lead to 'disguised partition'. It's a contentious issue. Why didn't Clerides speak out about this?