Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

RAFAELLA

EU doesn't have double standards, TR is asking for double standards. Did you see any other member that wants to enter EU not recognizing one excisting member? ...and arroganlty insisting on that? If TR wants to play the game she must follow the rules and fullfil her obligations.

Does not allowing a country with border problems, a questionable consitiution and 2 communites which are still trying to negotiate a solution into the EU and then turning to another candidate country and saying you have to recognise this country, putting in front of it those very issues which GCs feel would have held them hostage, this imo is double standards. Both candidate countries shoudl have been asked to resolve their problems before entry but some countries make promises and do not keep them which is called back stabbing.
Never under estimate Turkey she can pull whatevers necessary out of the bag just when its vital eg Annan plan.

The application was submitted by the worldwide recognized Cyprus Republic NOT by Gc leadership - there's not such a thing no matter how much you rant and rave that there is only Gc administration.
On every official and unofficial document only the name "Cyprus Republic" exist, digest it. Latest example, the counterdeclaration of EU mentions "Cyprus Republic" and not "Gc administration".

Get over yourself, you and the world can see the "RoC" caretaker GCs as representing TCs but we dont have to, sorry but this is one of the GCs many downfalls in the eyes of TCs and why we will never feel part of the "RoC".

Cyprus has joined a union of countries which part of that union is Greece as well. If TR couldn't or cannot make it and join this union it's not our fault, therefore why should CY held hostage of TR's inaptness.
Afterall, TR violated and still violates the agreement.

Turkey will do whatever is necessary, if she feels that putting an end to EU aspirations is what is best at any point during accession talks this will happen. Imo you will be suprised in the future how things pan out the bigger nations in the EU are all fighting their own corner not yours and will use "RoC" excuse if and when they feel it is necessary.

The problem is not caused by CY but by TR that illegaly occupies a territory of a sovereign country. Therefore, why should EU reject CyR's application to enter EU?
CY after the turkish invasion, with a territory under occupation, 200.000 refugees etc managed to stand on her feet, prosper and fullfil all the criteria to become an EU member and our fellow Europeans accepted this tiny island as equal member in their family.
Afterall nobody complaint.

You are talking about the result of the actions of both communites, we have been unable to solve anything for many reasons, your attitude of blaming one side totally is unacceptable. The "RoC" met a lot of resistence in the EU but you had Greece to see it through, lets have some honesty here.
You prospered because you benefit from recognition if the Cyprus issue was on a level playing field then you would not be where you are today. You enjoy political power and we enjoy the military power.
As for acceptence in EU, you cuased nothing but headaches for the EU and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, you can only hold a hot patato for so long.

Viewpoint, do yo have an a la carte memory? The CY problem could easily be solved, even years ago, if TR was respecting UN resolutions, since you mention UN. It seems that TR has no respect for anything, laws, values, principles, human rights etc.

These are not enough as you are well aware you can have a constitiution which you have no intention of adhering to even on the day of signing it. I believe you know what Im referring to, Military power can quash any amount of laws and regulations look at Iraq for example. The important issue is avoiding military action not inviting it and the crying wolf.

This is where our difference is. Gcs want a solution which will be based on EU values and laws, based on human rights, UN resolutions, ECHR decisions etc. Turks want a solution which violates all the above mentioned and these are excaclty the reasons why TR is afraid to face her fears - recognise CyR with all the consequences that would occur.
Would TR sell EU membership for a rock in the Mediterranean? If TR wants to play the game with her rules forced on EU, then I quess a big EU kick on TR's ass is more likely to happen. TR's accesion process will be put in the freezer

We want what you want as an ultimate goal but we can only get there through a certain process it will not happen overnight, if we cant hammer out a comprehensive solution then forcing the "RoC" upon TCs will never work.
If Turkey wants to opt out thats their decision and one that will not be taken lightly but I dont feel the EU wants Turkey in the EU it to big to poor to muslim etc etc but they will make her jump through hoops which were not used on other countries this for me is double standards. So the sooner they kick her ass and tell her where to go the sooner we all move on and you guys can go visit the corridors of ECHR.

Dont you realize that you have to sit down and work out a solution with us and not force the "RoC" down our throats. The first time the communities were asked about a solution we said YES but you said NO. Isnt it time you came down to earth and got your leader to talk to our with a view to genuinely resolving our differences rather than using EU leverage to gain results which could also backfire in your faces.

[RAFAELLA]

It's more than a year since the referendum took place and it's still amazing how some people fail to understand why the Gcs rejected the plan!


"When we were trying to convince Turkey to allow the passage of our troops through its territory in Northern Iraq, we gave Turkey two motives: several billion dollars in the form of donations and loans and Cyprus in the form of the Annan plan."
Daniel Fried (member of the National Security Council and special advisor to President Bush), 26 June 2004
_____________________________________

"The latest version of the Annan plan is a success for Turkish foreign policy and the Turkish government. With the latest form of the plan, the Turkish Cypriots gain many rights which they were unable to get even with the London and Zurich agreements [in 1959-60]. The Turkish side has also had some objections to this [latest version], but the Greek Cypriots are objecting to nearly all of it. The Annan plan in this form should be signed immediately."
Fatih Altayli in Turkish newspaper Hurriyet on the proposed Annan Plan
______________________________________

"... had he [Annan] been more closely involved in the details, [he] would not have wished his name to be historically associated with such departures from international law and human rights standards.
Claire Palley, Constitutional Law adviser to Cypriot governments since 1980, in 'An International Relations Debacle', 2005

[Viewpoint]

RAFAELLA you seem to be trying to convince yourself as to why you rejected the Annan plan. You have missed the point Im trying to make, that the TCs when asked do you want a solution they took to the streets and voted in favour a plan which they felt they could make work.

Now GCs felt the plan did not meet their needs so they rejected it, simple as that.

and you so conveniently avoid responding to,

Dont you realize that you have to sit down and work out a solution with us and not force the "RoC" down our throats

as surely we to have the right to say NO.

[Main_Source]

Turkish Cypriots went into the streets because a settlement for them was the biased Annan plan.

Of course the Annan plan didnt meet our needs....especially when at the least, our needs are for basic human rights.

[bg_turk]

Yeah sure... Cyprus was accepted in the EU because we said we wanted the annan plan!! What about the 80,000 pages of EU law and an application pending since the 70's?

It was never a formal condition, but it was an assumption that GC would be constructive about finding a solution. But of course when hardliner Papadopolous came everything changed.

Also bg_turk I kindly ask you to stop sidelining the fact that the "NO" from the Greek Cypriots was a result of a referendum, do you understand the word referendum?

Now i ask you: What does it say about you and the type of person you are if you believe we should be punished for voting "NO"?

I am not saying GC should be punished, I respect their right to determine their own faith. It is their most fundamental right in a democratic system. What I do not accept is the fact that TC are being punished because of the GC rejection of the plan.

It's a shame because you fail to see that the Anan plan WOULD NOT have been compatible with EU law and many people believe that Turkey would have used the Anan plan to bring the RoC accession process to a screeching halt only days before we entered the EU.

With all due respect, this is only what some GC think. Most EUROPEAN countries, in fact all of them, even Greece to some extent, supported the "uneuropean" Annan Plan. Plans become european when they suit your intererest.

Speculation aside, we honestly have no way of knowing Turkey's intentions until they materialise, however you must ask yourself why all this interest by Turkey to solve the Cyprus problem ONLY A FEW DAYS BEFORE CYPRUS ENTERED THE EU? If Turkey has known for decades that it would enter the EU and it also knew that Cyprus was a candidate then why all-of-a-sudden have an unprecedented desire for a solution?

In my opinoin Turkish foreign policy on Cyprus was wrong all these years before Cyprus entered the EU. Prime Minister Erdogan repeatedly emphasized this. Turkey should have been more constructive and many of the nationalists did not have the vision for a solution in Cyprus. They thought they good achieve TAKSIM by military force but they were wrong. [/quote]

[RAFAELLA]

Does not allowing a country with border problems, a questionable consitiution and 2 communites which are still trying to negotiate a solution into the EU and then turning to another candidate country and saying you have to recognise this country, putting in front of it those very issues which GCs feel would have held them hostage, this imo is double standards. Both candidate countries shoudl have been asked to resolve their problems before entry but some countries make promises and do not keep them which is called back stabbing.
Never under estimate Turkey she can pull whatevers necessary out of the bag just when its vital eg Annan plan.

So, you are telling us that the 24 EU members states are stupid -not to mention the whole world- and TR is the clever one not recognizing CyR!

Get over yourself, you and the world can see the "RoC" caretaker GCs as representing TCs but we dont have to, sorry but this is one of the GCs many downfalls in the eyes of TCs and why we will never feel part of the "RoC".

Since Tcs don't feel part of the CyR and they don't consider themselves citizens of CyR then why the hell are queuing for CyR-EU passports???
Why are they using the medical care that CyR offer to them on Gcs expense???

Turkey will do whatever is necessary, if she feels that putting an end to EU aspirations is what is best at any point during accession talks this will happen. Imo you will be suprised in the future how things pan out the bigger nations in the EU are all fighting their own corner not yours and will use "RoC" excuse if and when they feel it is necessary.

Whatever their case is, TR's behavior towards an EU member will always be in their agenta.

You are talking about the result of the actions of both communites, we have been unable to solve anything for many reasons, your attitude of blaming one side totally is unacceptable.

As I said before, if TR respected UN resolutions, the Cy problem wouldn't exist today.

You prospered because you benefit from recognition if the Cyprus issue was on a level playing field then you would not be where you are today. You enjoy political power and we enjoy the military power.

We are in the position we are today because international community realised the crime of TR towards CyR and Gcs. If the inavasion was legal and if the puppet state was legal it would have been recognised from its birth day.
Nobody asked the Tcs to be isolated and suffer under turkish military rule. You can enjoy turkish military power as much as you like...it seems that you like to be isolated from the rest of the world.

We want what you want as an ultimate goal but we can only get there through a certain process it will not happen overnight, if we cant hammer out a comprehensive solution then forcing the "RoC" upon TCs will never work.

We are not forcing anything, CyR is there and since Tcs benefit from it, they can join as well.

Dont you realize that you have to sit down and work out a solution with us and not force the "RoC" down our throats. The first time the communities were asked about a solution we said YES but you said NO. Isnt it time you came down to earth and got your leader to talk to our with a view to genuinely resolving our differences rather than using EU leverage to gain results which could also backfire in your faces.

We are not forcing anything, CyR is there and since Tcs benefit from it, they can join as well.
There was a referendum, as free citizens of a free country we decided to reject that rediculous plan that violates every trace of human rights and international law. This was our decision wether you respect it or not.
ANAN PLAN:
1- With the adoption of the new constitutional model of the UN Annan Plan in Cyprus, the Turkish Cypriots would automatically join the European Union regardless of any criteria and subsequently many thousands of Turkish settlers brought in Cyprus illegally by Turkey would acquire European citizenship equal to the French and the Dutch European citizens.
2- The new constitutional model for Cyprus would establish single voice in the EU, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister of Foreign Affairs would be Greek Cypriot whereas the Cyprus European Commissioner would be Turkish Cypriot. But other than that, yes, single voice! (sic).
3- A certain number of Greek Cypriots would return back to their homes. Others would receive "compensations" paid out of their own pockets through the establishment of special income-tax compensation funds. This would create many classes of "European" citizens, divided racially, ethnically, politically, economically, and religiously, but other than that they would all be "Europeans" enjoying the "same" rights.
4- Turkey would have extended military intervention rights over the entire of the United Cyprus Republic. This is indeed a very positive point for Turkey's interests.
5- The retaining of the illegal Turkish settlers brought in Cyprus by Turkey in order to destroy the demographics of Cyprus. This destruction affects not only the Greek-Cypriots but also the Turkish Cypriots that are a minority in the occupied areas of Cyprus.
6- The deprivation of the properties of the Greek Cypriots in the occupied areas of Cyprus by Turkey.
7- The victims of the Turkish invasion and ethnic cleansing, the Greek Cypriots, would have to pay reparations to themselves (!!!) for losing their properties by paying taxes to the reparations council! This would bring economic disaster to the island since the level of compensations is estimated to 8 billion US dollars.
8- Greek Cypriots are becoming second class citizens in their own country. They constitute the 82% of the population, yet, every 8 Greek-Cypriot votes will be equated with 1 Turkish-Cypriot vote! Cypriots will no longer be European citizens, but slaves!
9- The solution is an economic disaster for Greek-Cypriots who have been working hard to reach EU economic standards but at the end of the day the Turkish-Cypriots will be the sole benefactors of the accession to the EU.
10- With this plan, Cyprus becomes a protectorate of Turkey, the invader of Cyprus and legalizes all Turkish crimes against Cyprus. Further, no decision will be possible without the prior approval of Ankara. The Cypriots will be slaves to the Turks.
11- All provisions of the plan relating to the rights of the Turkish Cypriots have IMMEDIATE effect, whereas all provision relating to the Rights of the Greek Cypriots have an interlocutory period that spans 20 years from the signing of the agreement.

SO, what would you do if you were a Gc and you had this plan presented in front of you for a solution. Well? What would you vote? What?

[RAFAELLA]

..

[Viewpoint]

RAFAELLA

So, you are telling us that the 24 EU members states are stupid -not to mention the whole world- and TR is the clever one not recognizing CyR

If your held hostage and promised a solution then you to may agree to a troubled and divided country of no significant size into the EU.

Since Tcs don't feel part of the CyR and they don't consider themselves citizens of CyR then why the hell are queuing for CyR-EU passports???
Why are they using the medical care that CyR offer to them on Gcs expense???

The reason why these passports and medical care are given out is purely for politicial gain if you claim to represent TCs then you have provide the services you mention, the political points far outweigh and financial cost.

As I said before, if TR respected UN resolutions, the Cy problem wouldn't exist today.

The same could also be said if there was no Coup in 1974 or rejection of the Annan plan the Cyprus issue woudl not exist today.

We are in the position we are today because international community realised the crime of TR towards CyR and Gcs. If the inavasion was legal and if the puppet state was legal it would have been recognised from its birth day.
Nobody asked the Tcs to be isolated and suffer under turkish military rule. You can enjoy turkish military power as much as you like...it seems that you like to be isolated from the rest of the world.

The current situation is result of the actions of both communites when will you realize this? If the arrival of Turkey would not have occured then you would now be a part of Greece and not the "RoC".
You can call the TRNC whatever you want it is here to stay until we find a comprehensive solution acceptable to both communities.

We are not forcing anything, CyR is there and since Tcs benefit from it, they can join as well.

You are trying to force recognition of the "RoC" via the EU but this policy will one day backfire and could result in recognized division, its a dangerous game your leadership is playing.

There was a referendum, as free citizens of a free country we decided to reject that rediculous plan that violates every trace of human rights and international law. This was our decision wether you respect it or not.

I still feel you are trying to convince yourself that you did the right thing voting no and wondering about if there will ever be another opportunity like this one.
Your points have been noted its nothing I didnt read before, was the evaluation groups fee very high??? or did the EU pay for this report??

The TCs have come to terms with the GC rejection of the Annan plan which was like a slap in the face, we have become more weary of GC intentions and the result was a good lesson to all TCs.

[RAFAELLA]

If your held hostage and promised a solution then you to may agree to a troubled and divided country of no significant size into the EU.

I didn't know that such a tiny rock in the Mediterranean can hold as hostage the EU, but if it did according to it's size as you mention, then it has b****.

The reason why these passports and medical care are given out is purely for politicial gain if you claim to represent TCs then you have provide the services you mention, the political points far outweigh and financial cost.

Services are already provided and I bet you are a holder of a CyR/EU passport .

The same could also be said if there was no Coup in 1974 or rejection of the Annan plan the Cyprus issue woudl not exist today.

There was a Coup, Turkey invated with the excuse to... save the Tcs, why TR's still here with 40.000 troops? The Coup still goes on?
The plan was rejected for the known reasons. It's about time to stop chewing it, swollow it.

The current situation is result of the actions of both communites when will you realize this? If the arrival of Turkey would not have occured then you would now be a part of Greece and not the "RoC".
You can call the TRNC whatever you want it is here to stay until we find a comprehensive solution acceptable to both communities.

I wouldn't mind being part of Greece as long as there was no occupation of my country by TR, no violation of human rights, free movement etc.
"TRNC" can rant and rave for recognition as much as she likes, the thing is that nobody listens.
Solution can only be achieved through UN resolutions, ECHR decisions and EU principles etc.

You are trying to force recognition of the "RoC" via the EU but this policy will one day backfire and could result in recognized division, its a dangerous game your leadership is playing.

We do not force for recognition, CyR is already recognised not only by EU members but by the whole world except the -we are always right, we know everything- TR.
TR has an obligation to recognize Cyprus Republic and this is something that EU officials state every day.

I still feel you are trying to convince yourself that you did the right thing voting no and wondering about if there will ever be another opportunity like this one.

You can feel whatever you like. The 76% of Gcs don't try to convince themselves that they did the right thing - they did the right thing at the right time. No need to wonder either, there will be another opportunity and if it's a fair solution then Gcs have no reason to reject it.
As the EU counterdeclaration says: "In the context of this declaration, the European Community and its Member States agree on the importance of supporting the efforts of the UN Secretary General to bring about a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem in line with relevant UN resolutions and the principles on which the EU is founded, and that a just and lasting settlement will contribute to peace, stability and harmonious relations in the region."

Your points have been noted its nothing I didnt read before, was the evaluation groups fee very high??? or did the EU pay for this report??

It seems that you have read them before but you still have to them a hundred times more in order to understand what you are reading.

The TCs have come to terms with the GC rejection of the Annan plan which was like a slap in the face, we have become more weary of GC intentions and the result was a good lesson to all TCs.

If the rejection of the plan, which Tcs should expected, was a slap in the face for them then you can imagine what that plan itself was for the Gcs, who thank Jesus, rejected it.

PLUS, I'm waiting for your answer to my question:
What would you do if you were a Gc and you had this plan presented in front of you for a solution. Well? What would you vote?

[RAFAELLA]

Hey Viewpoint, where are you? Why don't you answer my question?
I'm waiting....
What would you do if you were a Gc and you had this plan presented in front of you for a solution. Well? What would you vote? Yes or No.