Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

If A TC wants his property in the south, then that will most probably mean the GC refugee from the north living there will have nowhere to go...then what?

i think there was a case like that in the papers some time ago
a tc went to court and asked to take his house back... in erimi episkopi i am not that sure... in any case around limassol
the problem was that in that house lives now a gc refugee

if i am not mistaken the tc won the case (it could be that i am wrong on this one) and then i lost track of the case.
most probably it somewhere in the supreme court or at some ministers desk.

the question is: what do we do with the gc refugee?
he said : i have no preblem in giving the house to its owener so long mine is returned.
and thats where it gets messy.
and once again:
both are innocent

any suggestions?

[garbitsch]

I do not see any different explanation kifeas. Let's analyse the situation here. We, T.Cs, are accused of stealing Greek Cypriot properties. Fine. We are demanded to hand these properties back to their owners. Fine. Turkey was sentenced to pay millions of dollars for not letting Greek Cypriots enjoy their properties in North. That's fine too. Tell me if the situation is any different in South Cyprus? Ok we are doing ethnic discrimination. But, RoC claims that it represents all Cypriots regardless of their ethnic background. Hence, a Cypriot, who is of Turkish origin, should not be barred from enjoying his property in South. But since he/she is of Turkish Cypriot origin, he cannot claim his property back. But on contrary, a Greek Cypriot can defend his right in ECHR and even get millions of dollars compensation. I cannot really solve this puzzle. Do you think a T.C will have a chance in ECHR? I do not see it's gonna happen.

[garbitsch]

cypezokyli

I suggest that let this property issue be included in a more comprehensive settlement plan or whatever you name it. Thus, this requires a restriction on the applications of G.Cs to ECHR. In this case, the court should decide that there is an extraordinary situation in Cyprus, and both communities are barred from enjoying their properties and a solution for this property issue is subject to the solution of the Cyprus problem at a larger scale.

[Viewpoint]

bg_turk quote;

Piratis, more and more I am starting to believe that what you actually want is annexation of Northern Cyprus not unification with TCs, and to you TCs are just an inconvenience and annoyance that you have to tolerate in order to get what you want.

Have to applaud you man you have hit Piratis's whole objective on the head, TCs are just an inconvenience to be tollerated to get what he wants which is a Greek Cyprus.

[Piratis]

bg_turk, the reason that both TCs and GCs are not able to return to their own homes is the Turkish occupation.

Either you like it or not the fact is that the majority of TCs have sided with the foreign invetors and they help them to maintain their occupation that violates the human rights of Greek Cypriots.

The problem can be solved if the illegal occupation ends and legality returns. If TCs stop to side with the Turks and the side with RoC against this illegality then you would be right in what you said.

However TCs now support the illegality and therefore they are as much guilty as Turkey is for the violations of our human rights.

That said I would support for RoC to take measures such us:
-Encouraging people to boycott the pseudo elections in the occupied areas (e.g. By being in RoC controlled areas the day of the voting)
- Encourage TCs to express their support to RoC and their non-acceptance of the occupation regime (e.g. like the Turkish Cypriot that used the Cyprus flag and he was arrested)
And similar measures that will allow individual TCs to separate their position from the one of the occupation regime. Then these individuals can be treated differently than those other TCs that support the occupation of Cyprus and the illegal "TRNC".

Piratis, more and more I am starting to believe that what you actually want is annexation of Northern Cyprus not unification with TCs

Annexation? north Cyprus is already part of RoC. There is nothing to annex. The northern part of Cyprus is illegally occupied and it needs to be liberated.

[Kifeas]

I do not see any different explanation kifeas. Let's analyse the situation here. We, T.Cs, are accused of stealing Greek Cypriot properties. Fine. We are demanded to hand these properties back to their owners. Fine. Turkey was sentenced to pay millions of dollars for not letting Greek Cypriots enjoy their properties in North. That's fine too. Tell me if the situation is any different in South Cyprus? Ok we are doing ethnic discrimination. But, RoC claims that it represents all Cypriots regardless of their ethnic background. Hence, a Cypriot, who is of Turkish origin, should not be barred from enjoying his property in South. But since he/she is of Turkish Cypriot origin, he cannot claim his property back. But on contrary, a Greek Cypriot can defend his right in ECHR and even get millions of dollars compensation. I cannot really solve this puzzle. Do you think a T.C will have a chance in ECHR? I do not see it's gonna happen.

Garbitsch, officially the situation is as follows. All TCs who remained in the south perfectly hold all their properties and houses, therefore no racial discrimination. All TCs who left (emigrate) Cyprus before 1974, may return and immediately apply for reinstatement of their property and /or house(s), therefore no racial discrimination. All TCs who left their property(s) and house(s) in the south, after 1974 and moved to the north, may apply for reinstatement only after they permanently settle in the south, preferably with their family, for at least 6 months. Then all investigation is carried out whether they were not given a GC house and /or property in the north and which they continue to posses, or they have transferred to their children or they have sold to any other TC or foreigner, or they have bought other GC property illegally (under “TRNC” procedures.) After all these procedures, which inevitably will take some time, then they are entitled to get hold of their properties and /or house. If another GC refugee originating from the north is currently using their house and /or property, then the government is obliged to first find alternative ones for the GC refugee and then allow the TC owner the possession. If any TC is wronged by the state, then they can apply to the courts of the RoC, in which case they will eventually win their rights, just like the case of Ibrahim Mustafa from Erimi village in Limassol. Furthermore, they can perfectly take the RoC to the ECHR’s, provided they have exhausted all the domestic legal and judicial means of the RoC and still feel that justice was not served to them.

You may argue that all this procedure constitutes some form of discrimination. Yes it does so, but a legal (constitutional) form of discrimination. The state (any EU state) has a duty to treat all its citizens equally and take all measures to protect their rights and interests. In the same way that the State has a duty to care for the TC’s rights, it also has for the GC refugee’s rights and interests visa vie their properties and houses in the north.

Can you imagine what would have been the case, absent these “discriminatory” procedures reg TCs who recited in the north, if all of suddenly a number of TCs who initially got in their possession various GC properties in the north, sell them to others or transfer them on their children’s names (always illegally according to the RoC and international laws,) and then come to the south, get hold of their original properties here, sell them again to a third party, and then move back to the north or elsewhere? Where will the constitutional duty that the RoC has to protect the GC refugee’s /property owner’s rights and interests go? Where will the equal treatment obligation that the state owes to all its citizens go?

[garbitsch]

Then all investigation is carried out whether they were not given a GC house and /or property in the north and which they continue to posses, or they have transferred to their children or they have sold to any other TC or foreigner, or they have bought other GC property illegally (under “TRNC” procedures.)

So in this line I figure that majority of T.Cs are not eligible to claim back their own properties in South, since most of them had already acquired a Greek Cypriot property in North.

You may argue that all this procedure constitutes some form of discrimination. Yes it does so, but a legal (constitutional) form of discrimination. The state (any EU state) has a duty to treat all its citizens equally and take all measures to protect their rights and interests. In the same way that the State has a duty to care for the TC’s rights, it also has for the GC refugee’s rights and interests visa vie their properties and houses in the north.

I didn't really said "this shouldn't be done". But there is still a discrimination and the legal system not only bars a Turkish Cypriot to get his propery back, but also he won't be able to win it back in ECHR because of what you have said. I mean, most of T.Cs hold G.C propery, thus they are automatically barred from their properties in South. And if they will go for suing RoC in ECHR, then the RoC govt will have the right to defend themselves by claiming that these people possess G.C property in North. On the other hand, a Greek Cypriot, even though he possesses a Turkish Cypriot property in South, is eligible to claim back his property in North.

[Kifeas]

Piratis, more and more I am starting to believe that what you actually want is annexation of Northern Cyprus not unification with TCs, and to you TCs are just an inconvenience and annoyance that you have to tolerate in order to get what you want.

Bulgarian Turk, your ignorance and stupidity is growing intolerable and reaching the boundaries of gross provocation. Please be careful in the language and terms you are using. When you speak about annexation of north Cyprus by Greek Cypriots, it is like you assume that the northern part of Cyprus belongs for some reason to the Turkish Cypriots only and that the GCs want to occupy and annex it.

Staff this in your brain! North Cyprus doesn’t belong to the TCs any more than it belongs to the GCs. In fact I argue that the north part of Cyprus (the Turkish OCCUPIED one,) used to be, and still is, the place, the homeland, of more GCs than TCs. The northern occupied part of Cyprus is the homeland, for millenniums now, of 200,000 GCs and only 60,000 of TCs.

The northern part of Cyprus constitutes a very considerable and an inseparable part of our cultural identity and historical consciousness, and our right to claim back our cultural identity, history and conciseness is something we can only give up after we will all completely cease to exist as humans on this planet.

[bg_turk]

If A TC wants his property in the south, then that will most probably mean the GC refugee from the north living there will have nowhere to go...then what?

i think there was a case like that in the papers some time ago
a tc went to court and asked to take his house back... in erimi episkopi i am not that sure... in any case around limassol
the problem was that in that house lives now a gc refugee

if i am not mistaken the tc won the case (it could be that i am wrong on this one) and then i lost track of the case.
most probably it somewhere in the supreme court or at some ministers desk.

the question is: what do we do with the gc refugee?
he said : i have no preblem in giving the house to its owener so long mine is returned.
and thats where it gets messy.
and once again:
both are innocent

any suggestions?

Yes, I have followed that case as well, and although the court has ruled in favor of the TC, the implementation of the ruling has been suspended until a "permament" solution is found. Basically, the RoC is violating the rights of citizens of turkish ethnic origin to accomodate the rights of those of greek ethnic origin. Something which is legally unacceptable and is a pure form of discrimination.

[bg_turk]

Bulgarian Turk, your ignorance and stupidity is growing intolerable and reaching the boundaries of gross provocation. Please be careful in the language and terms you are using. When you speak about annexation of north Cyprus by Greek Cypriots, it is like you assume that the northern part of Cyprus belongs for some reason to the Turkish Cypriots only and that the GCs want to occupy and annex it.

Staff this in your brain! North Cyprus doesn’t belong to the TCs any more than it belongs to the GCs. In fact I argue that the north part of Cyprus (the Turkish OCCUPIED one,) used to be, and still is, the place, the homeland, of more GCs than TCs. The northern occupied part of Cyprus is the homeland for millenniums now, of 200,000 GCs and only 60,000 of TCs.

The northern part of Cyprus constitutes a considerable and inseparable part of our cultural identity and historical consciousness, and our right to claim back our cultural identity, history and conciseness is something we can only give up after we will all completely cease to exist as humans on this planet.

I meant no offence nor provocation. I simply used the word annex in view of the current de facto situation.