Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

His words talk for themselves.

If you believed that then why call him a traitor? You chose to speak.

What I am saying is that there were no threats or any kind of missinformation by the goverment.

It is your opinion which you are entitled too. However it is not the opinion of others and to brand them traitors because they disagree is to me 'extreme' behaviour.

The ones who were not supposed to intervene, and it was not their job to do so, were some foreigners that day and night didn't miss the chance to threaten us.

Just foreigners trying to threaten you or your European partners that YOU had asked to accept Cyprus as a partner. The EU has all sorte of 'rights' to interfere and control what happens in Cyprus. That is what you ASKED for. Yet if you deem such 'input' in Cyprus' affairs to not be compatible with what you wanted then they are not EU partners with a vaild intetest in the situation but 'foreginers' trying to 'threaten' you and with no right or reason to have an interest.

Sure, why would they want another problem on them? Their reaction was natural. But we voted for our future, not to sutisfy some senior EU/UK/US people.

Your future is within the EU. I know Chris Patten from his years an MP and minister in the UK. I do not agree with his political views but I do not doubt for a moment that when he expressed his diaspointment at GC admins behvious leading upto the vote and that he considerd their behaviour 'was not good to put it mildly' - AFTER the vote that he genuinely believed this to be the case. He might be wrong in his assement but I have no doubt he believes it to be true. You insist that the GC admin did nothing in the lead upto the vote that was not right, proper and fair. Well many senior people in the EU do not share that view - yet they are dismissed as 'lying for convinence' by you (saying that which they know not to be true for some political objective). Some GC do not agree with you - yet they are dismissed as traitors and lying for money.

Well, if he can say whatever he believes, so can I. So if I belive he is a paid traitor I will say it. Fair, right?

Yes you can say that if you believe it. No one has said you can not say it. What you need to decide is if you will chose to say it or not and if you do you should consider the effects of saying it. Does it produce any 'positive' effect? Does it create an image of you as somone who is tollerant of differing views to your or as someone extermely intollerant of anyone who disagrees with you? As someone who strives to avoid emotive and divisive rehtoric and realises it's destructive nature?

[Bananiot]

Let me give you another interesting fact that highlights pre referendum trends. The "no" activists were really scared for the outcome of the vote and tried all sort of byzantine intriques to avert a positive outcome. One ploy they used was the call for the "yes" vote to reach a staggering 75% in order to have legal endorsement. Why, may you ask, they looked to set such a high standard? The answer is obvious, the measurements of the public opinion trends at the time showed a clear indication that the "yes" vote would exceed 60%. That was indeed likely since AKEL and DISI (between them they commanded almost 70% of the electorate) looked certain to support the solution efforts.

The events that followed are well documented and the orchestrated efforts of our government to swing public opinion payed handsome dividents, to the glory of deceit and bigotry. The result allowed Papadopoulos to remain the leader of a country and not become a mukhtar, as he asked in his address to the people. He does not want a solution based on federation because any solution based on federation will reduce him to a mukhtar. Through the decades, he rejected all solution efforts, and as you probably well know, you can not teach an old dog new tricks.

Is Bananiot a traitor? Well, at least I am not alone. One hundred thousand people who voted "yes" are also traitors. That is a consolation to say the least. The more the merrier ...

[MicAtCyp]

Brother Mihalis, if this is the case; you are right. I didn't know this issue. It's not fair to grant TCs disproportional share in public services of central state.

No re brother that was not the issue.The issue was the second paragraph of what you quoted.And that was in response of Bananiots point No 1.Please read Bananiots point No 1 and then the second paragraph of what you quoted.

Anyway its amazing to me how people like Bananiot can manage to heave up so much dust with their propaganda.
He refuses to answer my questions pretending he was insulted. He raises up his nose and pretends he is not willing to discuss with me, while at the same time he "tells others to tell me" the tons of mud he throws on me:

This fascist-like call to stop speaking my mind, you can tell your brother, does not touch me a bit, I have lived through worse dictators ...

He uses the case of the school he works where obviously the vast majority of the students were against the Anan Plan to conclude that was

the treachery of the "no" camp

forgetting 2 things.a)That the school kids cannot vote.b)Everybody could cast his choice freely at the poll without anybody knowing what s/he voted.

Erol, please notice this.We are not calling traitors those who voted yes. I myself was waiting eagerly for the talks to finalise and I was almost certain the final result would enable me vote yes. Can you imagine my disapointment, and my eventual no other choice than the OXI? In my family there are a lot of people who voted yes. We never even talked about their choice. We are calling traitors only 3 specific people. Clerides, Vasiliou and Anastasiades. If you want to know why, I can explain later.But with the so much dust Bananiot managed to heave up, I can understand the confusion.

By the way Bananiot, in here we discuss other issues as well. I admit it took me a long time to realise that your only problem is that of an obsession against Papadopoulos. Sorry I have no medicine to cure you. Patience....

[Piratis]

Erolz, those foreigners I am talking about are not just from the EU, they are mainly from the US.
But even the EU ones don't have the right to get involved into every internal afair of a member state. (by the way, before the referendum we were not even a member state yet).

About Patten, and the ohters I already gave my answer. This is not the first nor will be the last time that the interests of EU member states clash.

. What you need to decide is if you will chose to say it or not and if you do you should consider the effects of saying it. Does it produce any 'positive' effect? Does it create an image of you as somone who is tollerant of differing views to your or as someone extermely intollerant of anyone who disagrees with you? As someone who strives to avoid emotive and divisive rehtoric and realises it's destructive nature?

This is exactly what Bananiot should have though before starting his dirty propaganda. I merely respond to it.

measurements of the public opinion trends at the time showed a clear indication that the "yes" vote would exceed 60%.

This happened when you were dreaming, right? Can you show me even one poll with such results? Not even politis newspaper dared to publish a so much fake poll.

[erolz]

Erolz, those foreigners I am talking about are not just from the EU, they are mainly from the US.
But even the EU ones don't have the right to get involved into every internal afair of a member state. (by the way, before the referendum we were not even a member state yet).

The examples I gave of expressions of disapointment at how the GC admin behaved were solely from the EU. I gave no examples of US critism. So the EU had no right to be involved in the referendum? The referedum was a purely 'internal' matter in which the EU had no interest?

About Patten, and the ohters I already gave my answer. This is not the first nor will be the last time that the interests of EU member states clash.

Let's be clear here. This was not a difference of opinion between states within the UK. Chris Patten did not represent a state within the EU - he represents the EU itself. You exoect me to believe that he simply lied - saying that he believed the GC admin 'did not behave well to put it mildly' when in fact he knows that they did nothing that warranted reproach from the EU. That he did this for propaganda purposes. Well I am sorry but this is totaly unblieveable to me.

This is exactly what Bananiot should have though before starting his dirty propaganda. I merely respond to it.

Bananiot as far as I can see has expressed a view that the GC admin did not behave as it should in the run up to the election. His view is also echoed by the EU itself. You brand him a traitor, claimed he is only expressing this view because he has been paid to do so and you continue to express your disagreement in the most emotive and extreme ways imaginable - using expressions of 'dirty propaganda'. To be frank Piratis you scare me.

[Piratis]

About foreigners I answered already.

About Bananiot, obviously you agree with him. His aim is to support and give excuses to the ones who want to hurt us, so it is no wonder that you support him. It would have been very strange it you didn't.

[Europhile]

May I, as a new member with a long standing interest in EU affairs and in the problems of the division of Cyprus begin by congratulating all the participants in this discussion on the high standard and frankness of your debate. The mere fact that it is taking place is hopeful.

To an outsider like me who has visited both sides of the line on many occasions, one thing often strikes me which may sound funny to all of you and that is that it often seems to me that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots generally have more in common with each other than either ethnic group has with its respective "mainland cousins".

While I recognise that the UK as the former colonial power must recognise its share of responsibility for the present problems - we were as guilty in Cyprus of a policy of 'divide and rule' as in any other part of the former Empire, on the other hand we left behind on both sites of the line certain inheritances which are now shared between your communities, ranging from the wide-spread use of English, to shared legal and administrative traditions, to the fact that vehicles on both sides of the line drive on the left with considerably more prudence than mainland Greeks or Turks.

Something of that can be seen here in London (certainly up here in Enfield) where the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities generally get on very well indeed. Probably laos because here they still have the Anglos to complain about !

I remember well listening to Turkish Cypriots of all generations in Morphu/Guzelyurt lamenting the division of the Island and complaining of the behaviour of some recent immigrants.

I equally remember a Greek national who was watching with me the explosion of Greek flags in North London during the well deserved Greek victory in a recent European football competition and who unconsciously repeated an Athenian observation when Macedonians were watching a play by Euripides - "Just look at all those Macedonians [Cypriots] paying attention to the play [match] - just as if they were Greeks !

When Cyprus joined the EU it surrendered part of its sovereignty to the EU just as all the other Member States have done. You will find, just as other EU citizens have done, that the EU is all pervasive in many more areas of life than is often imagined before a county actually joins. Thus upsets older people who worry about loss of national sovereignty - but younger people increasingly see national identity as less important than their European identity.

Equally the EU has to remain officially neutral on issues of ethnicity and religion and this can have beneficial consequences: remember the row about the Greek practice of putting a person's religion on Identity Cards, or the EU measures which have required Greece not to discriminate to discriminate against its ethnic Turkish minorities in the North.

And the EU can bang heads together. It has to be able to do so to get the Member States to agree anything.

I think there was a very strong feeling in Brussels that your present (Greek) leadership behaved rather dishonourably in the run-up to the referendum on the Annan plan. Some of the Parliamentary observations were much ruder that Patten's criticisms whcih were on behalf of the Commission (and not the UK) and in the long term it is the Commission which counts.

This is going to make for a difficult first year in the club for Cyprus. This may make for a rude awakening for your present leadership - the Commission has much experience of dealing with fractious national ministers and has many ways of making their lives very unpleasant indeed - but in the longer term I think the result of membership will be that your ethnic, religious and linguistic differences will become less important, particularly to the younger generation, and the things you have in common will become relatively more important. At least I hope so.

Keep talking ! The ultimate objective is worth it !

[erolz]

Hi Europhile

Welcome to the site and thanks for your participation and comments. For me, we could certainly do with more 'voices' on these forums, dominated as they are currently by a very small number of vociferous participants (of which I am one).

[erolz]

About foreigners I answered already.

Yep you answered that when convient to you (like when they critise GC behaviour) the EU represents foreigners with no right or reason to have any say or influence in Cyprus and when convient to you (like the loziades case) they are the 'ultimate authrority' in determining issues in Cyprus who must be listend to and obeyed.

About Bananiot, obviously you agree with him. His aim is to support and give excuses to the ones who want to hurt us, so it is no wonder that you support him. It would have been very strange it you didn't.

Why do I obviously agree with him? I have made no personal comments on if I believe the GC admin behaved well or not. In fact the only personal beleif I have expressed on the issue at all is that IF you decide that the GC admin behaved badly to promote a NO in the vote, you should also recognise and accept the 'bad behaviour' that tried to influence and secure a 'yes' vote - particularly in the North but also in the south.
The issue that I am discussing actualy has nothing to do with how the GC admin behaved. The issue I am discussion is how YOU behave (not what you say but how you say it) priatis - when someone disagrees with you. How you behave scares me.

[Piratis]

Yep you answered that when convient to you (like when they critise GC behaviour) the EU represents foreigners with no right or reason to have any say or influence in Cyprus and when convient to you (like the loziades case) they are the 'ultimate authrority' in determining issues in Cyprus who must be listend to and obeyed.

I repeat that with foreigners I didn't mean any official EU policy. Actually most of the foreigners I am referring to are not from the EU.
Since when comments of Petten or other officials are considered court rulings? They have an opinion, just like everybody does.

The issue that I am discussing actualy has nothing to do with how the GC admin behaved. The issue I am discussion is how YOU behave (not what you say but how you say it) priatis - when someone disagrees with you. How you behave scares me.

The same principle could be applied to you and Bananiot. He several times said that Papadopoulos doesn't want a solution. Isn't this equivalent of calling him traitor? So my ways dear Erolz, are by no means worst, yet you only choose to criticize me, something that as I said already is no wonder.

in the longer term I think the result of membership will be that your ethnic, religious and linguistic differences will become less important, particularly to the younger generation, and the things you have in common will become relatively more important. At least I hope so.

The paradox of the story is that while Europe is getting more and more integrated, and even Turkey wants to join, in Cyprus such kind of integration is propagandized in the occupied areas as an attempted of Greek Cypriots to swallow and dominate Turkish Cypriots. While Europe of 500 million is overcoming the hatred of the past and gets united, they want to apply practices of apartheid on an island of less than a million people, that as you said share more things between them than with any other of our European partners.