Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

PS. I can even dare ask any TC member in this forum, to read your post and then my reply, and tell us honestly what they think you are doing.

MicAtCyp brother and Bananiot friend,

I heard the things Bananoit refered in his post. ..

Human rights violations in Cyprus before the referendum
Cyprus Action Network http://www.cyprusaction.org 23 rd April, 2004
The Cyprus Action Network would like to bring to the international community’s attention the flood of human rights violations that have taken place in the days preceding the referendum on the 24 th of April. These violations fall into the following categories:

South Cyprus:

· Government misinformation: Local media and politicians reported that state ministers and officials terrorized government employees, claiming that if the Annan Plan were to be accepted there would be salary cuts, benefit and job losses.1 In particular, the employees targeted were in the police force, in the military, and in the tourism industry (one of the largest, more profitable industries in the South).

· Education: Teachers in public schools have been pressuring students to support a “NO” vote, encouraging nationalistic behavior and refusing room for discussion in the classroom.2 A discussion on the plan to be held at the English school was cancelled, and the student organizing it was threatened. Threats for the son of a high rank civil servant who resigned because of his disagreement with the government were written on the walls.3

· Media misinformation: Both UN and EU mediators have been prevented from exposing their views in private and public media in the South.4 Moreover, thereare claims from politicians that the government had interfered with the operation of the state television channel, CyBC, and organized the president's interview right before the end of the campaign period to avoid the response of the "yes"side.5


· Miscellaneous: A Greek Orthodox bishop threatened voters with damnation if they support the United Nations plan.6 The Church’s influence in the South should not be underestimated, where there is still a large number of practicing Greek Orthodox citizens.

The Cyprus action Network seems to me as a reliable source. So that I believe that these human rights violations took place in South. The things Papadopulos said on TV concerning why he decided to vote no is questionable and some group of Cypriots and indivuduals can't share the same views with him. According to some Cypriots he may say the truths and to some others may not. Or there are some that only agree with a part of his opinions regarding the no vote. You know that Akel partly agreed with T-Paps statements.


So brother MicAtCyp, what exactly do you want me to tell you, as a TC?

[Piratis]

Some of those are semi-true (the semi-false part is that the government "misinformed" where the correct would be that the government "informed"), some of them are true but are simply part of free speech and nothing illegal (this is the case of Bishop) and some of them are just lies, (e.g. that the teachers were pressured, or that the UN or EU mediators have been prevented from exposing their views. I personally heard their views on TV many times).

The threats were coming from Anastasiades and some foreigners that were pressuring and threatening people to vote "yes".

[MicAtCyp]

Brother Insan I wanted you to read Bananiots letter and then my reply.And based on these to tell me your opinion. I did not ask you if you saw the same things in the Internet because obviously those who manufactured them did know how to use them too. And one way as you know is the Internet.
One last note. I would not put much faith on an internet site that calls the Cyprus Republic South Cyprus thus equalising it with an illegal occupational regime by calling that one North Cyprus.

The difference brother between dirty propaganda and the truth is very basic. It takes the truth, generalises it, twists it a bit, sometimes puts in some lies and ta taaa-voila, something that will make you not beleive your eyes.
If you examine carefully point No 1 of Bananiots post and the true course of events that i mentioned you will notce that both contain the same events !!! Now you tell me why the first one is propaganda while the second one is not.

[insan]

According to the Anan Plan we should give a list of 3,500 employees that would staff the Central State whereas the TCs would give the names of 1,500. In the end as you know Talat insisted that all his own people get administrative positions and we had the first real problem before we even got started... but that for you didn’t really matter, did it?

In this respect the Government send a circular asking for volunteers. Naturally the civil servants reverted asking for guarantees for their salaries and benefits.The Government replied that it cannot give guarantees.
Did the Government lie or did it tell the truth?

Brother Mihalis, if this is the case; you are right. I didn't know this issue. It's not fair to grant TCs disproportional share in public services of central state.

[erolz]

Like I said for me personally there is no objection.
However I have to repeat. Are you sure the ordinary people GCs or TCs are mature enough to accept such a decision? What if the UN decides is just a Minority status plus some privilages. Won’t the TCs start shouting? What if it decides it’s "a peoples" status less some privilages. Won’t the GCs start shouting? What if it is something in between. Won’t everybody shout?

I am not saying the UN will decided if TC/GC are of this third category or not. That will be down to 'us' to decide, but if we should decide that the two communites should have rights greater than a minority and less than a people then having such a 'third catgeroy' existing by UN definition would be most helpful to my mind. I think we have (between us) accepted this as a concept - that the two commuinites should have this 'middle ststus' - but at the moment that requires TC to either have an 'offical status' of minorty (+ some ecpetional rights in the consitution that are not consistent with the rights of minority) or an offical status of a 'people' (+some exceptional limits on their rights as a people in the consitituion). All I am saying is that if this thrid category 'existed' in UN definitions then this problem goes away. All cypriots (not UN) have to do then is agree that the commintes are of this third category.

I have also another serious doubt. For the Un to decide on an "in between" category and make it a Standard there must be voting and approval at the UN general assembly. According to McCroquadale there are 5000 similar disputes around the world (inside about 250 countries) . What is the chance for it to even appear at the General Assembly for voting?

Well it seems to me that to have such an 'existance' of a third category might be able to offer new options and apporaches in at east some of these '5000' similar disuptes and as such could not only 'help' Cyprus but many other places around the world - and as such the UN should be interested in such an effort.

If my doubt is correct then what alternatives are there? Any sugestions?

I am not sure? For Piratis to continue to insit the status of TC can only be that of a minority and me to respond with I will not accept that status for the TC people in cyprus, until we are both old and grey and withered perhaps?

Furthermore the Cyprus problem will not be solved by just this. Ok we agreed there must be a list of issues to be agreed and a supplementary clause in the constitution that no decision can benefit or hurm one community on the expense of the other. What about the issues themselves?

I understand that this needs to be done, but whilst the only 'legal' and 'normal' status of the TC people in Cyprus is to be a 'minority' as laid out by UN human rights charters I personaly see little point in defining and agreeing what 'exceptional' rights we will have in the consitution. For as long as there is an inistance that we are only a minority as a people then these 'execptional' rights carry no protections that I consider worth while.

Then what about the so many other issues that constitute the Cyprus problem?

For me we have to start with what is the status of the two communites is to be accepted to be - before anything else. We will not accept 'minority'. You will not accept 'people'. Thus the need for a third category.

[Bananiot]

This is not the issue Insan. The issue is the way Papadopoulos and his government terrorised the civil servants (their block vote amounts to more than 80 000 I presume) into voting "no". It was a typical case of subconscious guiding, i.e. we need some of you to switch to the Federal State, but beware, you may not get the same salary as before. All of them were potential candidates for the new job, so by telling lies he managed to secure a large chunk of their vote. If this is dirty and untrue propaganda then words have lost their meaning.

Since you mentioned schools, I can tell you that I personally witnessed the treachery of the "no" camp at the school where I work. One Greek litterature teacher invited a tv station (sigma) and it interviwed students but surprise surprise, all of them were strongly against the solution. About 20 of them were interviwed and not a sigle soul was to be seen supporting solution. In school communities throughout Cyprus, teachers and pupils who were pro solution were mocked and portrait as traitors, pretty much as Piratis does day and night in this forum and I am sorry to say, lately MicAtCyp, who takes criticism directed at Papadopoulos, personally.

The kind of democracy that prevailed prior to the referendum is highlighted by the last few crucial hours before the curtain fell. The geat democrat Papadopoulos locked all tv and radio stations from 19.00 to midnight and gave convenient interviews to friendly reporters with the other side denied the opportunity to speak to the electorate. Yes, I want to shout this, for the whole world to know, but isn't it naive to think that the whole world is waiting for Bananiot to tell them the truth? This fascist-like call to stop speaking my mind, you can tell your brother, does not touch me a bit, I have lived through worse dictators ...

[erolz]

I am not sure I should get 'involved' in this but certainly there are those that were less than happy at the 'tactics' of the GC administration leading upto the referendum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3660171.stm

"EU officials are angry that the divisions have not been overcome.

"We're all profoundly disappointed that this historic opportunity has been lost," EU External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten said.

"I don't think the leadership of the Greek Cypriot community have behaved well, to put it mildly - gagging (European) commissioners' attempts to speak in the community and so on." "

Personaly I see a lot of 'hypocrasy' in the sense that untold ammounts of pressure were put on TC to say yes but the Eu does not see any problem in this - only with the 'pressure' from the GC administration to say no.

Also I would say that all this talk of 'traitors' scares me profoundly. I voted no to the annan plan against the majority opinon here. No one has called me a traitor and I do consider those that said yes traitors either. This extreme emotional language just scares me and to see it here is saddening.

[Piratis]

Erolz, I never called traitors those that voted "yes". We had two options in the referendum: "yes" and "no". People voted, decision is taken.

Bananiot probably didn't see any of the several polls conducted long before the incidents he claims existed. The "no" vote was huge in those polls (less huge in the polls conducted by the very "objective" politis newspaper), showing among other things that most "yes" supporters were older people and people with lower education level (on average).

Is he really trying to tell us that the people wanted to vote "yes" and they changed their mind because of some imaginary threats from the government?? Some people really don't know how to accept defeat.

The majority of GCs do not accept the Annan plan dear Bananiot. Thats it. Nothing less nothing more. Stop crying.

[erolz]

Erolz, I never called traitors those that voted "yes".

No but you have branded Bananiot 'traitor' and accused him to be in the pay of the americans (from memory). As I say this kind of things scares me. It makes me wounder about your 'reasonableness'. About how you treat those that disagree or oppose you. I dont say this to attack you but because it is true (for me). It scares me when TC brand others as traitors as well.

Is he really trying to tell us that the people wanted to vote "yes" and they changed their mind because of some imaginary threats from the government?? Some people really don't know how to accept defeat.

And are you really saying it had no effect? That if a yes vote had been supported and promoted by the GC adminsitration that the result would have been the same? Under such circumstances it may well have still be a majority for no but also it might have been a smaller majority.
At the end of the day whatever you or I or Bananiot thinks about the behaviour of the GC adminstation in the lead up to the referendum it is clear that senior people in the EU were 'disapointed' at this behvaiour and considered that the GC adminstration 'did not behave well' and that they felt 'betrayed' by the GC decision to oppose a yes vote.

The majority of GCs do not accept the Annan plan dear Bananiot. Thats it. Nothing less nothing more. Stop crying.

Should he also stop arguing that the no vote was a bad decison if that is what he beleives? That 'unfair' means were used to infulence voters if that is what he believes? That if he does not stop doing this he must be a traitor and in the pay of the americans?

[Piratis]

No but you have branded Bananiot 'traitor'

His words talk for themselves.

And are you really saying it had no effect? That if a yes vote had been supported and promoted by the GC adminsitration that the result would have been the same? Under such circumstances it may well have still be a majority for no but also it might have been a smaller majority.

What I am saying is that there were no threats or any kind of missinformation by the goverment.
Papadopoulos, Chrisofias, Anastasiades etc all said their opinion, and their opinion had an effect. Is there something wrong with this? Isn't it what the leaders are supposed to do?
The ones who were not supposed to intervene, and it was not their job to do so, were some foreigners that day and night didn't miss the chance to threaten us. Do you think this didn't had an effect? Without these threats the "yes" vote would probably be much smaller.

it is clear that senior people in the EU were 'disapointed' at this behvaiour

Sure, why would they want another problem on them? Their reaction was natural. But we voted for our future, not to sutisfy some senior EU/UK/US people.

Should he also stop arguing that the no vote was a bad decison if that is what he beleives? That 'unfair' means were used to infulence voters if that is what he believes? That if he does not stop doing this he must be a traitor and in the pay of the americans?

Well, if he can say whatever he believes, so can I. So if I belive he is a paid traitor I will say it. Fair, right?