Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Just a final question Erol.In this "equality" arising from the presumable principle of "a people" how much do you think the rights of the 82% of "a people" would become, and how much the rights of the 18% of "a people".To avoid accusing you again of vague or cloudy answers notice I am expectibng numbers.

On issues that concern and relate to the two seperate people (communites if you prefer), like for example union with Greece, or if Greek should be the sole offical language etc then equality should mean 50:50. In areas that are not realted to 'clashes' between the desires of one community and the other then it should mean 82:18 (if those are the correct ratios of the populations)

The princiapl is - as equal indiduals we are one person one vote. As equal communites we are one community one vote.

[Piratis]

In areas that are not realted to 'clashes' between the desires of one community and the other

ok, can you be a bit more specific as to which these areas are?

[MicAtCyp]

Hmm, it seems he are heading towards another agreement with Erol. Anyhow lets wait and see. Patience. . .

On issues that concern and relate to the two seperate people (communites if you prefer) , like for example union with Greece, or if Greek should be the sole offical language etc then equality should mean 50: 50. In areas that are not realted to 'clashes' between the desires of one community and the other then it should mean 82: 18 (if those are the correct ratios of the populations)

I prefer the word communities or groups. I don't like the word desires. Because "desires" can be manipulated and serve interests of external sources. Furthermore "desires" can just be emotional with no legal possibility to clarify them wrong or right. Thus I would prefer the word "interests" because these can be legally judged as harmful or benefiting.

For example lets take the matter of joining the EU. Suppose Cyprus was a United Country. The GCs want to join the EU while the TCs don't want either because Turkey controls their Politicians and forced them to just claim this "desire" or really the TCs see their interests getting harmed. The first question is: Will an EU accession of Cyprus benefit the majority only? The answer is no. Will it benefit everybody equally? The answer is yes. Then what is the problem? The TCs would propably say it would mean Union with Greece and thus benefit the GCs more or even harm the interests of TCs. Well thats a valid concern. It should go to a special neutral court to decide. Is really the Cyprus’s EU accession meaning Union with Greece, is it benefiting the GCs and harming the TCs? Perhaps the court would decide yes, perhaps no. Any court decision should be respected. Suppose it decided yes because then mainland Greeks could flood Cyprus. That though could be fixed with a derrogation. So the GCs put their claim again this time with a derrogation. This way the TCs have no problem, and presumably they should accept Cyprus’s EU accession or go to court again where this time they would lose.
Thats the procedure I see democracy functioning in a new United Cyprus. In some cases the GCs wil lose in some the TCs lose. In all cases both communities win because Democracy as a rule of law gets embeded

Well Erol you pointed two examples of how you understand equality on some issues. There is no disagreement on those, neither on the principle of "equality" if this is the concept of it that you want to portray. But this is just your personal opinion. Are you sure this is the meaning of "equality" that your leadership wants? ? I honestly have very serious doubts!

Well anyway lets continue with your personal concept. Like I said I don't disagree. I would further propose 2 things. A list of issues - even a long one - similar to the issues you mentioned (to be agreed) and be included in the constitution. Or a clause like the one I wrote with bold letters in my post at the "self determination" thread. Or even both. For me it is very important that the new United Cyprus is a stable system, and it will obviously not be stable if such provisions are not included. I think there will not be a single Greek Cypriot that will not be able to understand and respect and even feel them in his heart, that such provisions are for their own good as well. I don't think any real TC would either. OK I exclude the lunatics from this generalisation. But I really do concern about the settlers who would eventually stay. Are you sure they can understand anything that differs from being an Adana Province, given their degree of illiteracy? What can you tell me to ease my fears?

[erolz]

Hmm, it seems he are heading towards another agreement with Erol. Anyhow lets wait and see. Patience. . .

It has never been my objective to NOT find agreement and common ground if that is possible.

I prefer the word communities or groups. I don't like the word desires. Because "desires" can be manipulated and serve interests of external sources. Furthermore "desires" can just be emotional with no legal possibility to clarify them wrong or right. Thus I would prefer the word "interests" because these can be legally judged as harmful or benefiting.

Ok communites and interests it is.

For example lets take the matter of joining the EU. Suppose Cyprus was a United Country. The GCs want to join the EU while the TCs don't want either because Turkey controls their Politicians and forced them to just claim this "desire" or really the TCs see their interests getting harmed. The first question is: Will an EU accession of Cyprus benefit the majority only? The answer is no. Will it benefit everybody equally? The answer is yes. Then what is the problem? The TCs would propably say it would mean Union with Greece and thus benefit the GCs more or even harm the interests of TCs. Well thats a valid concern. It should go to a special neutral court to decide. Is really the Cyprus’s EU accession meaning Union with Greece, is it benefiting the GCs and harming the TCs? Perhaps the court would decide yes, perhaps no. Any court decision should be respected. Suppose it decided yes because then mainland Greeks could flood Cyprus. That though could be fixed with a derrogation. So the GCs put their claim again this time with a derrogation. This way the TCs have no problem, and presumably they should accept Cyprus’s EU accession or go to court again where this time they would lose.
Thats the procedure I see democracy functioning in a new United Cyprus. In some cases the GCs wil lose in some the TCs lose. In all cases both communities win because Democracy as a rule of law gets embeded

I think this is fine in 'theory'. In practice what court would take on this role and what would the legal basis be for the two communites?

Well Erol you pointed two examples of how you understand equality on some issues. There is no disagreement on those, neither on the principle of "equality" if this is the concept of it that you want to portray. But this is just your personal opinion. Are you sure this is the meaning of "equality" that your leadership wants? ? I honestly have very serious doubts!

I really can not speak for anyone but myself and certainly not for our leadership.

Well anyway lets continue with your personal concept. Like I said I don't disagree. I would further propose 2 things. A list of issues - even a long one - similar to the issues you mentioned (to be agreed) and be included in the constitution. Or a clause like the one I wrote with bold letters in my post at the "self determination" thread. Or even both. For me it is very important that the new United Cyprus is a stable system, and it will obviously not be stable if such provisions are not included. I think there will not be a single Greek Cypriot that will not be able to understand and respect and even feel them in his heart, that such provisions are for their own good as well. I don't think any real TC would either. OK I exclude the lunatics from this generalisation. But I really do concern about the settlers who would eventually stay. Are you sure they can understand anything that differs from being an Adana Province, given their degree of illiteracy? What can you tell me to ease my fears?

For me the issues are establishing a 'legality' of the status of the communites beyond just in a Cypriot constituion and establishing who / what would rule on disputes.

As far as the settlers go I am not sure what I could say to ease your fears. To me they are no different from GC or TC in the sense of an ability to understand and accept what is reasonable and understandable. I think they have shown a desire and commitment to be 'Cypriots' and thus would no more or less likely to agree a solution than any other Cypriot - unless that agreement was to make them not cypriots and force them to up root and return from where they came.

[Bananiot]

You should know of the following acts of our government prior to the April 24 referendum.

In a letter, the government informed state employees that they would be moved to the federal services and its not secured that they would continue to receive the same salary.

The employees of the Central Bank recieved a letter informing them that their professional future could not be guaranteed.

Officers and members of the police force also recieved a letter in which they read that "efforts are being made to safeguard your salaries and benefits".

The 4 000 profesional soldiers were told that the A plan left them dangling in uncertainty.

The thousands of people that make their living in the tourist industry were told by the Minister of tourism that tourism would collapse because of the solution.

The director of the Central Bank informed all GC's that the economy would collapse in viwe of the solution.

The letter that all civil servants got from the Attourney General informed them that everything would collapse, the Republic of Cyprus would collapse and that the "yes" vote ignored our history.

The Minister responsible for work informed all that the social security plan would collapse if it incorporated the TC's. This would automatically meant loss of pensions.

Come to that, I think now that I made a mistake by voting "yes" to the solution. Unless all the above are lies ...

[MicAtCyp]

It has never been my objective to NOT find agreement and common ground if that is possible.

OK Erol nobody said it’s your fault.It takes two to tango. Both you and us get equally disapointed when we don't agree isn’t it?

I think this is fine in 'theory'. In practice what court would take on this role and what would the legal basis be for the two communites?

The court must be neutral thats for sure.Maybe consisting of an equal number of GC and TC supreme court judges plus some foreigners. I can’t think of anything better, I am ready to listen to any sugestions though.
I don't understand what you mean "the legal basis of the two communities".If you mean equal number of judges then this goes without saying.How else could it be neutral?

[erolz]

The court must be neutral thats for sure.Maybe consisting of an equal number of GC and TC supreme court judges plus some foreigners. I can’t think of anything better, I am ready to listen to any sugestions though.

It is a resonable basis but also one that was tried before and essentialy failed before. I am not entirely sure how it could be 'impoved' really?

I don't understand what you mean "the legal basis of the two communities".If you mean equal number of judges then this goes without saying.How else could it be neutral?

No what I mean by the 'legal basis' of the two communites is that there seems to be some agreement on the conecpt of a stsus of the communites that is 'more than a minority' and 'less than a people'. The problem is that the only 'legal' (defined and recognised by org like the UN) statuses that ecxist at the moment are either 'people' (which is not acceptable to you/GC) or 'minority' (which is not acceptable to me/TC). A solution of TC legaly (according to UN definaitions) as a minority but with some 'sepcial and extra' clauses in the Cypriot consitituion is not really sufficent to reassure me enough. Alternatively a solution of TC leagly recognised asd a 'people' (defined and recognised by an org like UN) but with some sepcial and extra clauses in the Cypriot consituion to limit these rights as people is probaly not sufficent to reassure you (and laomost certainly not Piratis form what I percieve as his position). If there was a 'third' category recgonised and defined by the UN of 'more than a minority' and 'less than a people' then this would not be a problem. Is that a bit clearer now?

[Piratis]

A solution of TC legaly (according to UN definaitions) as a minority but with some 'sepcial and extra' clauses in the Cypriot consitituion is not really sufficent to reassure me enough.

So we agreed on what these "special and extra clauses" will be and now the only problem is how we will reassure that the "evil" GCs will not try to remove these "'special and extra clauses" in the future?

It seems to me it would be much harder to agree on what exactly those "special and extra clauses" will be, and way easier to agree on the way those clauses will be 100% secured.

[erolz]

So we agreed on what these "special and extra clauses" will be and now the only problem is how we will reassure that the "evil" GCs will not try to remove these "'special and extra clauses" in the future?

It seems to me it would be much harder to agree on what exactly those "special and extra clauses" will be, and way easier to agree on the way those clauses will be 100% secured.

Well I disagree and sepcificaly because we agreed what they would be in the 1960 yet they failed in their 'securing' not in a failure to agree some in the first place.

I accpet a view that the security failed because the 'wrong' agreement was made and if a 'right' one is made then they would not fail. I accept this view but do not agree with it.

[MicAtCyp]

In a letter, the government informed state employees that they would be moved to the federal services and its not secured that they would continue to receive the same salary.

OK Bananiot lets see who is telling lies.

According to the Anan Plan we should give a list of 3,500 employees that would staff the Central State whereas the TCs would give the names of 1,500. In the end as you know Talat insisted that all his own people get administrative positions and we had the first real problem before we even got started... but that for you didn’t really matter, did it?

In this respect the Government send a circular asking for volunteers. Naturally the civil servants reverted asking for guarantees for their salaries and benefits.The Government replied that it cannot give guarantees.
Did the Government lie or did it tell the truth?

After you answer this question, answer me honestly.Do you think what you are doing consitutes a moral or an immoral behaviour?

All points of your last post are manufactured in the same twisted way.You are against Papadopoulos and it is your right to be, but please don't stab all of us in your efforts to stab him. He is a single person we are the people.You are hurting us, you are hurting your own people via dirty and untrue propaganda, don't you understand? This propaganda is 10 times more difficult to prove a lie in the eyes of foreigners because it comes from OUR OWN PEOPLE like you and Anastasiades !!!!