Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

No Bananiot, I said there could possibly be a war in case we said yes to Anan plan, and Turkey would not get a date. So no comments for the personal insult of "anecdote form".
Furthermore I said I suspect Papadopoulos is working for the Interests of The Bankers and the Priests just like his supporter Akel.Remember who the previous favorite was?Again from the Bankers i.e Paschalides.And the one before that? Like I said it is a suspicion.Any comments from you should bear in mind what I said.
What else did you ask?
A, whether Papadopoulos would veto Turkey in December.The answer is definetely NO.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol,
I already said that for the sake of discussion lets accept that the TCs are "a people" and as such are entitled to rights of self determination.Of course you went along your own personal opinion that this does not mean they should have their own state, but I think you are just fooling yourself with this beleif. Be sure if that was the case the TCs would not wait a single moment. That was what grandpa Denktashi was trying all his life i.e recofnition of his illegal pseudo-state.

Anyway let us just stick to your own personal opinion, which if I understood correctly is that the TCs should be recognised as "a people" with self determination rights, and that they would excercise this self determination right towards establishing a common state based on the principle of equality

Explain how you imagine this equality in terms of the governing system to be applied, percentage of land to be ruled, power sharing in that common state, human rights etc as well as how the other 82% of "a people" would not damage its own rights arising from its self determination in that same direction.

Explain us also what would happen if any of the two "a people" would prefer to excercise their self determination right in another way hat suits them better e.g the formation of two completely separate states each minding its own bussiness.What kind of an agreement should we then have that will not deprive anyone the full extend of his self determination right?

[Bananiot]

Ok, I get it now, I wish you would make it more clear. You are saying that if we voted "yes" and Turkey didn't get a date in December, we could have been faced with a war. This is far fetched and I sincerely wish you were joking! I wonder if the above senario was in the mind of some people before voting in the referendum.

Anyway, in my opinion and I said this many times, Cyprus has been partitioned as from April 24 when we rejected a solution the whole world supported as a fair and balanced one. There is no way Turkey can be considered the villain again since Papadopoulos has managed in a few months to make sure that Turkey came out clean.

Thus, depleted of supporters and friends on the international scene and Greece removing the Cyprus issue from the Greek-Turko relations, we are home and dry, partitioned but ethnically clear, for the glory of all nationalists and their followers ...

P.S. If you consider that I insulted you by saying that you are joking then I apologise.

[Piratis]

I don't think we would face a war. We would simply be in an even more messed up situation than we would anyways be with the Annan plan.

Turkey didn't come out clean at all. The whole world is not just Americans and their followers, and as you know they didn't manage to pass what they wanted to pass in the UN. And they will not manage to pass what they want to pass in the EU either. Cyprus will remain a problem for them, and we will try our best to make it as hard for them as possible.

With the Annan plan we lost a battle, but the war is not over yet.

[erolz]

Erol,
That was what grandpa Denktashi was trying all his life i.e recofnition of his illegal pseudo-state.

All his life? Have you read the various proposals he made from 63-74? I will not even beginto show evidence that this claim is not back up by the documentary record of his postion. Certainly it may have become a political objecticve for him from 84 onwards having failed for over 24 years to secure a united Island - but to claim he was working towards a seperate recognised Turkish state in Cyprus 'all his life' is just rehtoric imo.

Anyway let us just stick to your own personal opinion, which if I understood correctly is that the TCs should be recognised as "a people" with self determination rights, and that they would excercise this self determination right towards establishing a common state based on the principle of equality

It is my belief that almost any settlement including the original consitution and the annan plan could have worked (and could work) IF there was a true acknowledgement and acceptance of the 'equilty' of the two peoples in cyprus - not just in word but more importantly in the hearts of the people and most especially in the hearts of the peoples leaders.

Explain how you imagine this equality in terms of the governing system to be applied, percentage of land to be ruled, power sharing in that common state, human rights etc as well as how the other 82% of "a people" would not damage its own rights arising from its self determination in that same direction.

There would need to be compromise on both sides, respect on both sides, pragmatism on both sides, good will on both sides but before all this there would need to be an acceptance of the equality and rights of both sets of people that make up the population of cyprus. Once this existed (in hearts and not just words) then the details of how such a state would run becomes in my opinion a minor and resolvable issue.

Explain us also what would happen if any of the two "a people" would prefer to excercise their self determination right in another way hat suits them better e.g the formation of two completely separate states each minding its own bussiness.What kind of an agreement should we then have that will not deprive anyone the full extend of his self determination right?

If both the peoples of Cyprus expressed a wish to live seperately as sovreign nations in a divided island, then so be it - but I doubt that such is the true will of either community. If one side wishes full seperation and the opther does not then some form of external arbitration would be the last recourse to solve the matter - as it was 'solved' in the forum of the UN in 58(?).

[MicAtCyp]

Although it is pointless to discuss possible scenarios here’s one scenario, how war or at least a limited scale military confrontation, could occur in case of a double yes in the referendum and an eventual failure of Turkey to get a date in December.
The only point I want to make is that it might be too dangerous to accept an arbitrated or an imposed by third parties solution while Turkey is completely outside of the EU.

Scenario:
Referendum for the Anan Plan passed with a yes from both sides.The Generals DID NOT YET approve it. They meet to decide but do not announce any decision.They let things take their route.The Co-Presidents apply to EU for the Anan Plan becoming a primary law.The Eu obstructs and takes no steps forward. Meanwhile there has not been any disarmament from the Turkish side and taking that as an excuse no disarmament from us either. Famagusta however is returned to its inhabitants roughly on schedule. And suddenly in December Turkey does not get a date.Ertogan falls immediately.. The Generals pull back and anounce they never accepted the Anan Plan, backing up their excuses by the fact that the EU did not make it its Primary law as per their pre-requisite.Is this scenario quite predictable so far?

Some events that could possibly trigger war or at least a limited scale military confrontation afterwards.

The Gcs and the TCs invested so much in that "yes" vote and think they should do something.So they decide to make a bicommunal massive demonstration.Turkish soldiers are ordered to shoot...

Some GC army enters Famagusta to safeguard at least that part which was already returned.The Turkish army responds....

[MicAtCyp]

That was what grandpa Denktashi was trying all his life i.e recofnition of his illegal pseudo-state.

Wow it seems we touched a sensitive string of Erols here. Ok Erol let me rephrase to make it more understandable to you. That was what grandpa Denktashi was trying all his life i.e the creation and then the recofnition of his illegal pseudo-state. Got it now?

And if you want to discuss the so possitive stance of your grandpa all these years at the negotiations how about starting from his refusal to even appear in Burgenstock?

I asked

Explain how you imagine this equality in terms of the governing system to be applied, percentage of land to be ruled, power sharing in that common state, human rights etc as well as how the other 82% of "a people" would not damage its own rights arising from its self determination in that same direction.

And you replied

There would need to be compromise on both sides, respect on both sides, pragmatism on both sides, good will on both sides but before all this there would need to be an acceptance of the equality and rights of both sets of people that make up the population of cyprus. Once this existed (in hearts and not just words) then the details of how such a state would run becomes in my opinion a minor and resolvable issue.

You are avoiding to answer to the point.

[erolz]

Wow it seems we touched a sensitive string of Erols here. Ok Erol let me rephrase to make it more understandable to you. That was what grandpa Denktashi was trying all his life i.e the creation and then the recofnition of his illegal pseudo-state. Got it now?

It not a nerve any rawer than any other in this whole mess. I just think this kind of statment does nothing to help things and neither does the lampooning (calling him my grandpa etc). If you think that there is eveidence that this has been Denktash's aim his whole life then present it. Why the need for such sarcasm. Why make these assertions without evidence?

And if you want to discuss the so possitive stance of your grandpa all these years at the negotiations how about starting from his refusal to even appear in Burgenstock?

Both sides have rejected proposals in the past and no doubt judging from these forums will continue to do so in the future. Does this 'prove' a single objective of a seperate state on the part of Denktash for his whole life? In my opinion it does not. I am aware of proposals either suggested by Denktash or by others from before 1960 onwards that were acceptable to him that are simply not compatible with your assertion that he has had a single goal of a seperate recognised TC state. This is basis for 'complaint' at your claim.

You are avoiding to answer to the point.

I am doing my best to explain my view / position - I really am. As I have said before here and elsewhere almost any of the many 'solutions' that have been propsed since 1960 to date would be acceptable to me provided I believed that GC accepted (in their hearts and no just words) the prinicpal of equality of the peoples in Cyprus. That includes the the original consitiution - which I believed accepted this principal and it includes the Annan plan and it also includes most of the other proposed solutions in between. As I have reaptedly tried to explain, for me, the details and sepcifics of any plan are of less interest to me than what is in the hearts of the people who agree it. For me almost any plan could lead to a true peacful united Cyprus based on mutal respect - provided that the 'right' things are in peoples hearts. On the other side no plan, no matter how well crafted can work if the wrong things remain in peoples hearts in my view. Yes I remain cautious because history has taught me that such caution is warranted. That even when an agreement was made that embodied the necessary acceptance of the principal of equality that alone was not sufficent to see it implemented.

If that has not answerd your question then sorry but you will just have to try and rephrase what it is you are asking me.

[Bananiot]

Did you know that President Papadopoulos intervened in order to prevent the Olympic flame from going to the north? In this sorry affair, once again, he revealed his true nationalist-chauvinist self. He did so because the north would treat the Olympic flame with equal honours as the south, according to the explanation given by the president. He has never accepted the principle of equality on which any agreed solution to our problem will need to be based. He believes in "clean" solutions and this man has not badged an inch ever since he came to the political scene as Makarios aide in his early twenties.

You should also know that his close ally AKEL supremo Christofias, speaking in Limassol last night, called for the National Council to define clearly what the GC side wants in viwe of forthcoming moves from the international factor.

Papadopoulos, when he became a subject of critisism, he pointed out that the political parties may not know what we are striving for, but that he made his viwes known to the "people that sould know". A number of users agreed with this, citing the fact that our hands should not be made public.

Perhaps, Christofias should have his ears pulled for calling for our goals to be defined. We should blindly trust the "small ethnarch" because he knows what is best for us. The "big ethnarch" did not have such worries. He was god and nobody dared question the will of the god.

[MicAtCyp]

My questions are clear Erol and you still avoid to answer to the point.I even highlighted them for you with bold letters in my previous message.
If still you cannot understand them then I am no longer interested to waste my time.