Don't lose hope Piratis. The reason we cannot reach an agreement with the TCs is not because their views differ from ours. Its because there are too many "Turkeys" involved.Its the deep state, the military, the groups that profit from the division, the political leadership in Turkey etc.
A solution will be found after Turkey gets a date in 17 December. In this respect it will be a mistake of historic propotions if Cyprus vetos Turkey in December.
If Turkey does not get a date there will never be a solution. They will turn towards their Turan dream (Pan-Tourkism) i.e to form a union with their neighbouring Turkish spreaking countries like Ajerbaijan, Turkmenistan etc and perhaps some other muslim countries.-with them of course being the leaders of the union.
Go to this forum where you can see that the majority of Turks actually prefer Turan than becoming EU members.(You may have to search old threads though)
http://www.turkey.com/forums/forumdispl ... ?forumid=2
The Generals in Turkey will NEVER sign anything for Cyprus unless they get something real in hand. Those who beleive that if we had said yes to the referendum, Turkey would implement the agreement are just fooling themselves. If Turkey by any chance "loses Cyprus" without any other better gift, there will be a revolution in Turkey by the illeterate mob....
PS.No I did not print them! Simply IE 6.0.28 that I am using has a print-preview option where I saw that each forum page equals 8 A4 ones.
Did you know?
by insan » Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:56 pm
MicAtCyp,
Either Turkey gets a date for EU accession talks or not; as long as GCs cconsider TCs as a minority no solution will be reached. Even if all settlers had been repatriated and Turkish troops withdrawn other than 650... That's the core of Cyprus conflict which TCs have been struggling to overcome.
Since early 1900s TCs struggling against GCs not to become a minority but an equal political partner.(You should know what I mean)
Exploitations?
Yes... Some of the extreme self-interest groups exploited and still exploit some of the key issues in order to keep themselves in power and grab all they can...
Either Turkey gets a date for EU accession talks or not; as long as GCs cconsider TCs as a minority no solution will be reached. Even if all settlers had been repatriated and Turkish troops withdrawn other than 650... That's the core of Cyprus conflict which TCs have been struggling to overcome.
Since early 1900s TCs struggling against GCs not to become a minority but an equal political partner.(You should know what I mean)
Exploitations?
Yes... Some of the extreme self-interest groups exploited and still exploit some of the key issues in order to keep themselves in power and grab all they can...
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by Bananiot » Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:57 pm
I agree and believe me I struggle with my TC compatriots for complete and absolute political equality of the two communities, even if this makes me a traitor in the eyes of some GC jokers. Excuse my outburst but one can take up to a certain amount of slander.
December will be interesting and I am not sure whether Papadopoulos is not flirting with the idea of using the veto. He says that he will not use it because "veto is for the strong" but I do not trust him. He has been known to tell the ... occasional lie (ask Ferhoigen if you do not believe me).
There is no evidence whatsoever that Turkey would want to solve the problem after she gets a date in December. It will be more to Turkey's interest if the problem is solved just before accession in 10-15 years. By that time the A plan would appear like a beacon of virtue, compared to the plan we will face in 2018 or so.
December will be interesting and I am not sure whether Papadopoulos is not flirting with the idea of using the veto. He says that he will not use it because "veto is for the strong" but I do not trust him. He has been known to tell the ... occasional lie (ask Ferhoigen if you do not believe me).
There is no evidence whatsoever that Turkey would want to solve the problem after she gets a date in December. It will be more to Turkey's interest if the problem is solved just before accession in 10-15 years. By that time the A plan would appear like a beacon of virtue, compared to the plan we will face in 2018 or so.
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by Piratis » Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:55 pm
Insan, GCs consider TCs to be a minority because they are a minority.
We are talking about different groups of people spread in the same geographical area. For example what is the difference between Turks in Bulgaria and Turks in Cyprus? How comes the Bulgarian Turks are a minority while the Turkish Cypriots are not?
You simply use the power of Turkey to steal from us more power, and more land, than what proportionately belongs to you.
I highly doubt. I would rather see Turkey outside of the EU trying for this "Turan dream". I strongly believe it is for our interests if Turkey turns towords Islam and away from the west. The fact that many Turks actually don't want to enter in the EU is a very good sign.
Lets not forget that the only real way to get back what we lost in a war is if Turkey gets into the wrong side in a future war (like it happened in the first World War for example).
Ireland and UK being in the EU didn't solve the North Ireland problem, did it?
Now of course I don't think Cyprus alone can stop Turkey. But the truth is that we are not alone in this. Unlike some governments most EU citizens are against Turkey entering the EU.
No, you are a traitor in the eyes of all GCs except the jokers.
We are talking about different groups of people spread in the same geographical area. For example what is the difference between Turks in Bulgaria and Turks in Cyprus? How comes the Bulgarian Turks are a minority while the Turkish Cypriots are not?
You simply use the power of Turkey to steal from us more power, and more land, than what proportionately belongs to you.
A solution will be found after Turkey gets a date in 17 December.
I highly doubt. I would rather see Turkey outside of the EU trying for this "Turan dream". I strongly believe it is for our interests if Turkey turns towords Islam and away from the west. The fact that many Turks actually don't want to enter in the EU is a very good sign.
Lets not forget that the only real way to get back what we lost in a war is if Turkey gets into the wrong side in a future war (like it happened in the first World War for example).
Ireland and UK being in the EU didn't solve the North Ireland problem, did it?
Now of course I don't think Cyprus alone can stop Turkey. But the truth is that we are not alone in this. Unlike some governments most EU citizens are against Turkey entering the EU.
even if this makes me a traitor in the eyes of some GC jokers.
No, you are a traitor in the eyes of all GCs except the jokers.
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by MicAtCyp » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:02 pm
Insan wrote: as long as GCs cconsider TCs as a minority no solution will be reached.
I think I discussed this with Erol in too much detail, and I am happy we agreed on it. So I don't understand your point re adelfe.
Bananiot, i am not going to reply to you, I will rather leave you call yourself the usual crab you got used to call yourself in your effort to get an applause. You are not going to get it from me, no matter how hard you try.
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by insan » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:10 pm
I think I discussed this with Erol in too much detail, and I am happy we agreed on it. So I don't understand your point re adelfe.
I think I've missed your discussions concerning this issue while I was at Elafonsos, (Marmara Island) last week... What was your agreed outcome btw, re adelfe?
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by insan » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:37 pm
For example what is the difference between Turks in Bulgaria and Turks in Cyprus?
Turks in Bulgaria are a minority but TCs in Cyprus are not a minority. Struggle to be an equal political partner of GC community will continiue against all extremists, status-quoers and Piratis likes...
Ps: Thanx your support compatriot Bananiot.
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Cyprus and Turkish Accession Negotiations
by Europhile » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:53 pm
On 28th August MicAtCyp wrote:-
It is correct to say that only the Republic of Turkey recognises the TRNC administration. But an absence of diplomatic recognition does not mean that the rest of the world does not accept that there is a de facto administration in the North of the Island and that it has support from its inhabitants.
Therefore I expect most people outside Cyprus would have problems with inflammatory expressions such as "pseudostate" or "puppet administration".
There is general acceptance in the international institutions of the world that the present unitary constitution of Cyprus is unworkable which now has to be modified in a way that makes it accepatable to a majority of both communities.
Diplomatic recognition of the TRNC was with-held as a means of putting pressure on the de facto leadership in the North to negotiate. But having achieved from the North a popular acceptance of the Annan Plan, while that plan was rejected in the South, the balance of outside opinion has changed.
Thank you, Bananiot, for the reference to Heracletos - Alexander certainly used the expression when explaining why a battle could not be re-fought with certainty of the same outcome.
I certainly hope that reform of the present constitution will prove possible because I agree that if this does not happen, partition looms. I do not regard partition as being necessarily a disaster. Yugoslavia has fragmented, So has former Czechoslovakia. States are not immutable and the international community is quite capable of accepting the idea of partition of Cyprus.
Bananiot writes that the present administration has spoken of a "European" solution. I doubt there really is any "European" solution. Europe can "advise, encourage and warn" to adopt a reference to the constitutional role of the UK monarchy, but it cannot impose on member states solutions to internal problems except insofar as a national government acts in breach of EU law.
On 29th August Piratis wrote:-
"Your" country, dear Piratis also includes the Turkish Cypriots as part of its population. There is nothing in any way undemocratic or contrary to human rights in a constitution which permits a minority to block unacceptable decisions of the majority. Many federal constitutions envisage special majorities for certain types of decision. That comes from a recognition that every form of government holds within itself the seeds of its own perversion.
We ought to remember recent events in Serbia and Kosovo. After Milosevic, European countries ought to be particularly wary of that kind of majority rule.
Likewise, I wasn't over enamoured with the Piratis remark on 29th August:-
Once you start talking about "our" side as opposed to "their" side, you are putting forward the best possible argument for permanent partition into two states. If you are looking for a single state solution, the expression "our" side has to be inclusive.
Likewise, on 31st August Piratis rather gave the game away with his remark:-
It may well be true that this may be a vision of some of the more benighted sons of Orthodox Christianity. Those who refuse to acknowledge the reality of the demise of Byzantium. Those who approved of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Those who doubtless would have wished the EU to have permitted Greece to continue discriminating against its Muslim citizens by writing their religion on their ID cards.
But Piratis and perhaps others had better get real about how far Cyprus will have any decisive role in Turkish accession negotiations.
(1) There are more practising Muslims in the UK then there are practising members of the Anglican Communion - not to mention the comparative statistics for Orthodox Christianity. There are about 5 million Muslim French citizens - etc, etc. Europe is destined to be a multi-ethnic and multi-faith community of secular orientation. And Muslims are by now an important and influential minority whose views will be taken into account.
(2) Unless Piratis wants a new and much bloodier version of the Crusades, then it is very much in Europe's interests for Turkey to remain a secular and nationalist state exercising an influence in favour of the ideals of democracy and pluralism on all those states surrounding it whose names end in "...stan". So the interests of Europe are for Turkey to accede - and as soon as practicable.
It is considerations of that importance which are going to determine how the EU handles the Turkish accession negotiations. I rather think that the localised problems of what is, after all, a smallish island state in the Med of little geopolitical importance are not going to receive too much attention during that process and people may be kidding themselves if they think that Cyprus is going to have much influence - veto or no veto.
Physician, Heal Yourself ! Solve the division of Cyprus, Piratis, before you start issuing prescriptions for the 454.9 million citizens in Europe.
In Cyprus there is only one officially recognised Government, the Republic of Cyprus which is a member of the EU on its entire geographical area. The Eu aquis is simply suspended at the occupied areas otherwise known as a pseudostate or puppet admininstration.
It is correct to say that only the Republic of Turkey recognises the TRNC administration. But an absence of diplomatic recognition does not mean that the rest of the world does not accept that there is a de facto administration in the North of the Island and that it has support from its inhabitants.
Therefore I expect most people outside Cyprus would have problems with inflammatory expressions such as "pseudostate" or "puppet administration".
There is general acceptance in the international institutions of the world that the present unitary constitution of Cyprus is unworkable which now has to be modified in a way that makes it accepatable to a majority of both communities.
Diplomatic recognition of the TRNC was with-held as a means of putting pressure on the de facto leadership in the North to negotiate. But having achieved from the North a popular acceptance of the Annan Plan, while that plan was rejected in the South, the balance of outside opinion has changed.
Thank you, Bananiot, for the reference to Heracletos - Alexander certainly used the expression when explaining why a battle could not be re-fought with certainty of the same outcome.
I certainly hope that reform of the present constitution will prove possible because I agree that if this does not happen, partition looms. I do not regard partition as being necessarily a disaster. Yugoslavia has fragmented, So has former Czechoslovakia. States are not immutable and the international community is quite capable of accepting the idea of partition of Cyprus.
Bananiot writes that the present administration has spoken of a "European" solution. I doubt there really is any "European" solution. Europe can "advise, encourage and warn" to adopt a reference to the constitutional role of the UK monarchy, but it cannot impose on member states solutions to internal problems except insofar as a national government acts in breach of EU law.
On 29th August Piratis wrote:-
I can not accept to live in a country were less than 1 out of 10 people (50%+1 of TCs) will be able to block the decisions of my country.
"Your" country, dear Piratis also includes the Turkish Cypriots as part of its population. There is nothing in any way undemocratic or contrary to human rights in a constitution which permits a minority to block unacceptable decisions of the majority. Many federal constitutions envisage special majorities for certain types of decision. That comes from a recognition that every form of government holds within itself the seeds of its own perversion.
We ought to remember recent events in Serbia and Kosovo. After Milosevic, European countries ought to be particularly wary of that kind of majority rule.
Likewise, I wasn't over enamoured with the Piratis remark on 29th August:-
So whats next for us? Should we switch to greek language discussions and see whats the best way for our side to act now?
Once you start talking about "our" side as opposed to "their" side, you are putting forward the best possible argument for permanent partition into two states. If you are looking for a single state solution, the expression "our" side has to be inclusive.
Likewise, on 31st August Piratis rather gave the game away with his remark:-
I would rather see Turkey outside of the EU trying for this "Turan dream". I strongly believe it is for our interests if Turkey turns towords Islam and away from the west. The fact that many Turks actually don't want to enter in the EU is a very good sign."
It may well be true that this may be a vision of some of the more benighted sons of Orthodox Christianity. Those who refuse to acknowledge the reality of the demise of Byzantium. Those who approved of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Those who doubtless would have wished the EU to have permitted Greece to continue discriminating against its Muslim citizens by writing their religion on their ID cards.
But Piratis and perhaps others had better get real about how far Cyprus will have any decisive role in Turkish accession negotiations.
(1) There are more practising Muslims in the UK then there are practising members of the Anglican Communion - not to mention the comparative statistics for Orthodox Christianity. There are about 5 million Muslim French citizens - etc, etc. Europe is destined to be a multi-ethnic and multi-faith community of secular orientation. And Muslims are by now an important and influential minority whose views will be taken into account.
(2) Unless Piratis wants a new and much bloodier version of the Crusades, then it is very much in Europe's interests for Turkey to remain a secular and nationalist state exercising an influence in favour of the ideals of democracy and pluralism on all those states surrounding it whose names end in "...stan". So the interests of Europe are for Turkey to accede - and as soon as practicable.
It is considerations of that importance which are going to determine how the EU handles the Turkish accession negotiations. I rather think that the localised problems of what is, after all, a smallish island state in the Med of little geopolitical importance are not going to receive too much attention during that process and people may be kidding themselves if they think that Cyprus is going to have much influence - veto or no veto.
Physician, Heal Yourself ! Solve the division of Cyprus, Piratis, before you start issuing prescriptions for the 454.9 million citizens in Europe.
Last edited by Europhile on Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Piratis » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:57 pm
Turks in Bulgaria are a minority but TCs in Cyprus are not a minority.
So apples in Bulgaria are apples, but in Cyprus apples are bananas just because you say so? Maybe it has passed from your mind that because you are the powerful ones you can decide whatever outrageous you feel like. Unfortunately for you you, while you are powerful enough to keep the current status, you not powerful enough to change the obvious facts and legalize your actions. You actions and demands are and will remain illegal, and at the right time justice will prevail.
Struggle to be an equal political partner of GC community will continiue against all extremists, status-quoers and Piratis likes...
There is nothing extreme about stating the obvious. What is extreme are your illegal actions that will not be legalized just because you say so.
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by Piratis » Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:13 pm
Europhile,
You talk like you own EU. Are we equal EU citizens, or maybe you still consider us your slaves?
Talk for yourself, because you represent neither all Europeans (most of them actually don't want Turkey in the EU) , neither the international community.
As I said, empires come and go, the balance of power changes. We will be here, like we've been for the last 3.500 years and nobody can take Cyprus away from us.
You talk like you own EU. Are we equal EU citizens, or maybe you still consider us your slaves?
Talk for yourself, because you represent neither all Europeans (most of them actually don't want Turkey in the EU) , neither the international community.
As I said, empires come and go, the balance of power changes. We will be here, like we've been for the last 3.500 years and nobody can take Cyprus away from us.
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