Cyprus-Forum.com

[supporttheunderdog]

one of the issues GIG has raised is the blood relationship with Greeks and ancestral rights: well here you go:

Ancestral mtDnA - ie the female line:ftp://ftp.cordis.europa.eu/pub/inco2/docs/coe_3rd_agm_annex_3_aphrodite.pdf had been on Cyprus long before there were Greeks.

The common theory is that the Eastern med was mostly repopulated following LGM in a eries of waves in Neolithic times who mostly came out of the fertile Cresecent and/or SE Anatolia. They were of haplogroup J and E, later waves came of the Russian/Ukranian Steps who were aparent;y of haplogroup R1

Now The article shows the majority of females in Cyprus can trace their unbroken female ancestry back to neolithic times when the earliest permanant settlers arrived. That was from 6000BC to 3200BC or so. They could not have been Greek as there was no Greek or Hellenic culture until about 2000 BC - 1600 (in the Bronze age) when the Achaeans one of the four Hellenic tribes, entered what became Greece-. They founded the first Greek Civilisation, the Mycenaean Civilisation, in about 1600BC, possibly under the influence of meeting the Minoans, from whom they borrowed writing, by adopting Linear A to be Linear B.

This was at the point that Greeks can first be identified anywhere as Greeks. The Older Minoan civilisation cannot be describes a Greek - their language was not thought to be Greek nor even probbaly even a proto Greek, but they were conqured by Greeks in about 1600 - 1400 BC .

A few Myceneans (who were Greek) came to Cyprus starting in about 1400BC for trade and it is thought there were some later larger groups who came along in 1100-1000BC when pushed out of mainlaned Greece by later Hellenic Tribes, such as the Dorians.

Now it follows that if the majority of the ancestors of the majorority of Cypriots arrived ever before there were Greeks, defined as Greek Speaking/Culture, then the basic claims of Ancestral links to Greeks are weak Greekness must be a charicturistic which Cypriots aquired, I suspect probably as a result of a process of elitist cultural ascendency following two conquest events, the first in about 11000-1000 BC tevidenced by what happned in the Pafos region and Enkomi, the second in about 320 BC when all traces of non-greek culture were supressed by the Ptolomies.

Storioes of peaceful arrival and voluntary adoption by the natives of Greek language and Culture are probably ancient propoganda designed to cover up that one had a powerful cohesive group who were able to maintain their cultural identity when normally one would expect them to be assimilated by the locals. The chances are the average peasant kept his ancestral tungue for sombut he was probba;ly illiterate and few wriytten records would exist: the deeds however of the leaders would be carved in stone in their langauge.

The general drift of the gentic evidence tends however make the theories of Predominant Mycenaean descent as one of the foundations of the hellenism of the Cypriots ( as GIG keeps mentioning) probably increasingly untenable.

[Viewpoint]

Your secret aim has come to light now you are trying to camouflage it, what you say holds no water as your credibility when we understand your posts has well and truly been blown.

What PMs are you referring to?

[repulsewarrior]

...can you remember where we first spoke?

[kurupetos]

enosis is alive and kicking

Why? Do you feel a pain in the bum?

[GreekIslandGirl]

Enosis.

European Long Distance Path E4

The European long distance path E4 was extended to Cyprus following a proposal by the Greek Ramblers Association to the European Ramblers Association, the coordinating body of the European Network of long distance paths. The main partners in Cyprus are the Forestry Department and the Cyprus Tourism Organisation.

The path starts at Gibraltar, passes through Spain, France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria, mainland Greece, the Greek island of Crete, to the island of Cyprus. Cyprus is linked to Crete by air and sea.

In its Cyprus section, European path E4 connects Larnaka and Pafos international airports. Along the route, it traverses Troodos mountain range, Akamas peninsula and along stretches of Cypriot rural areas, along regions of enhanced natural beauty and high ecological, historic, archaeological, cultural and scientific value.

[supporttheunderdog]

It remains my view that Enosis as envisaged as late as 1974, (and even by some today) involving politican union with Greece would have been an economic disaster for Cyprus and most Cypriots since it would have lead to reduced employment opportunities, particularly in the Government and Service Industry segments. There would be knock on effects on retailing, etc.
1) Inevitibly Government would be run from Athens: I cannot see Millions of Greeks allowing less than 10% of their number to have an equal say in how things are done - it is worse that the 80/20 or so situation in Cyprus. However that has two immediate consequences.
(a) most main ministry functions and all the support staff that goes with them (mostly based in Nicosia) would not have existed Cyprus - the number of civil service jobs would certainly be reduced and most those that remain would probably be mostly at the lower clerical levels.
(b) Tax revenues would inevitably leach from Cyprus to pay for the Athens based civil servants, and we would be paying for it at Greek tax rates.

All of this would have a cascade effect on the local economy as out of the wages they earn the civil servants spend money in local buinessess - if the wages are being earned in Athens then the Athenian shops benefit and eg Nicosia buisnesses loose out.
(c) as a third main consequence Cyprus would loose control over spending on vital Cypriot infrastructure projects, eg Hospitals and Schools, Highways etc. as the funds would need to be authorised from Athens in competition to demand from the rest of Greece:

2) there would probably be fewer jobs in other state entities eg RiK , Cyta, EAC, etc, as again the HQ jobs would probably be run from Athens - see above.

3) Few major financial / commercial institutions would have significant major offices in Cyprus - in particular the headquarters jobs would be in Athens. That would complement the effect of fewer public service jobs in Cyprus as out of the wages they earn the bankers and insurance people etc., spend money in local buinessess - again if the wages are being earned in Athens then the Athenian shops benefit and eg Nicosia buisnesses loose out.

4)Cyprus has been able to attract offshore business in away I do not think Greece has - this contributes to tax revenues and job creation.

5) We would still have public service and financial services jobs but I suspect fewer and those at the lower end of the pay-grade. Take out these jobs that move to Athens and jobs in other industries suffer eg Contruction, retailing: I cannot see major retailers investing here as they have. That again reduces the job market. However what we be left with? A greater reliance on Tourism and Agriculture, neither of which are great payers: we would have some local light enginering and other local maunfacturing, but they too would probably be at a lower number. The Disapora would probably be larger as faced with less opportunity many of the Go getters would probabaly get up and go.

But then no doubt the apologists for Enosis would say it does not matter - these are fellow Greeks.....

[Nikitas]

GIG wrote:

"Modern 'enosis' is about fighting for recognition of our ancestral identity and with it ultimately freedom for our island! - "

So presumably Enosis has lost its original mantle of incorporating Cyprus to the Greek state.

There were centers of Hellenism around the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, from Odessa to Alexandria and from Cyprus to Pontos. The modern Greek state was incapable of establishing and maintaining ties with these prosperous and cosmopolitican centers. It either ignored them, as in the case of the Greeks of the Black Sea, attempted to take them over, in Asia Minor, or left them to their fate, as in the case of the Greeks from Egypt. When the Greek speaking Italians of the Magna Grecia region asked for teachers the Greek administration took years to respond. Any other country would have welcomed the chance to extend its culture and influence in similar circumstances.

Greeks built a state the backbone of which were peasant staffers mostly from Peloponnesus and later from Crete. They could not, and most today cannot, think outside the limits of an Athens based state. Their narrow minded attitude spawned the idiotic policies that brought us to the situation we are in today.

As for our ancestral Greekness, it is keeping more robust and healthier in an independent Cyprus. Listen to the Greek spoken on RIK and compare it to the ungrammatical blather on any Greek TV and then we can talk about who is the better steward of language and culture.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The general drift of the gentic evidence tends however make the theories of Predominant Mycenaean descent as one of the foundations of the hellenism of the Cypriots ( as GIG keeps mentioning) probably increasingly untenable.

Where is your "genetic evidence" for the untenable "Mycenaean descent"?


[Please don't paraphrase me when you don't even understand your own Estonian sources. Your source merely confirms the relatedness of people closest to their nearest neighbors and demonstrated many similarities (for such a small sample) between Cretans and Cypriots despite Crete being further away from the Levant than is Cyprus. What they showed is that Crete, being further away from the Levant/Egypt, has few similarities. Do you understand the significance of these sorts of comparisons? ]

[GreekIslandGirl]

GIG wrote:

"Modern 'enosis' is about fighting for recognition of our ancestral identity and with it ultimately freedom for our island! - "

So presumably Enosis has lost its original mantle of incorporating Cyprus to the Greek state.

As far as Cyprus is concerned, it now has a perfectly acceptable association with Greece within the confines of the EU. This association, should be emphasised to aid distancing the Turkish claims. You see, I think the threat comes from losing this accepted, Greek-linked, Europeanisation if we, instead, identify ourselves more with the Brit-created Cypriot identity, which is also claimed by Turkey through proxy (i.e. if we allow overemphasis on some 'sharing' aspects of Cyprus' important history with Turks-TCs).

[Nikitas]

GIG,

Turkey has distanced itself plenty with the 1974 invasion and occupation since then. It has officialised its status as that of foreign military occupier.

GCs have no fear of losing their Greekness. They managed to maintain their language, culture, religion, customs etc in the face of worse adversities than the 1974 invasion. I doubt that we would have been as Greek as we are now if there had been Enosis in let's say 1950. Modern Greece is nowhere as Greek as Cyprus.

In post 1974 Greece there has been a domination of culture by left wing, so by definition imported, ideology. In their rush to deny the Junta, Greeks have gone overboard in eliminating customs that they perceive as fascist by association. It is no accident that the word patriot usually appears in newspapers in quotation marks. Even right wing parties feel obliged to use left wing rhetoric, as noted by commentators like Nikos Dimou (Bananiot's favorite) and professor Yannaras (an intellectual giant compared to Dimou).

Modern Greek culture is a mish mash of pseudo ecology, ersatz left wing-ism, and self deprecation. Recall that a song by an iconic public person, titled "Asshole Greeks" was a major hit some years ago.

Against this background we should fear losing our Greekness if Enosis comes about, and not if it does not.