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[Robin Hood]

The Washington-Moscow “Peace Plan” for Syria: From the Geneva Communiqué to UN Security Council Resolution 2254

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-washington-moscow-peace-plan-for-syria-from-the-geneva-communique-to-resolution-2254/5497707

[Paphitis]

It's all easily solved in a forum, especially when the belligerent parties are not involved in the discussion.

I think that was a very perceptive comment and you can see your observation coming to the fore here

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Yes it is easy to come up with the solutions when none of us have any vested interests in the outcome. The problem will be satisfying the vested interests of those with rampant views, whatever they happen to be. The outcome will also have no direct effect on us as the conflict is remote, although there may be unanticipated consequences?

Don't assume I have no vested interest. I have a vested interest alright. 300,000 have been killed and most of these were from Assad's Regime Forces and certainly not terrorists. Most of the refugees (some 4 million of them) are NOT terrorists.

You want it to be all for nothing. But sorry, there is no return to the Status Quo. The uprising has made the world take notice and the bear minimum that will happen here is that the Sunnis will be granted their voice and that won't bode well for Assad.

If they don't get rid of Islam, and then Zionist control, there will never be an end to this.

I am not sure I fully agree with that but I can understand the reasoning behind it. IMO: What needs to be done with both Islam and Zionism is to recognise that they both have a political as well as a religious component. To get rid of the political element is certainly a requirement for any form of peace, at least in the Middle East. But how can you achieve that when the major players remain unchecked because of a weak UN that should be leading the battle but just sits on its arse doing very little but spout hot air and create Resolutions .......... that the major powers stick the middle finger up to anyway?

I was almost going to say I agree with you 100% until you started to ramble on about the major players being unchecked. If it wasn't for the major players, ISIL will have expanded unchecked.

Paphitis:

I read what you say although I have to say I think you are well on the way to losing the plot completely. Are your views really reflective of those Statesmen, politicians and diplomats in whose hands the solution lays?

Yes they are! The are commonly held views. I just have the luxury of being able to express those views and be less accountable to a public which has absolutely no idea. Easy for them to say they want peace and a return to the Status Quo whilst sipping Cafe Lates in Sydney Harbour or San Franscisco but how can they ever face a Sunni Child and tell him or her that they don't exist and that they are from a lesser God and don't deserve a job, a vote or any Human Rights?

I got no problem with looking into the eyes of ANY Syrian Refugee.

If your version of the situation, as far as ‘The WE’ (The US/NATO + Coalition) are concerned, is the way the coalition leaders are thinking then there is little point in having any discussions to resolve the problem as, what they will accept, what they will not accept, as well as what they demand of others, says the whole thing is pretty well cut and dried as far as they are concerned! It would seem to be a case of '....play by our rules or all bets are off’ ! That is OK if you have the winning hand but, thank goodness, not everybody is going to jump to the ‘WE’ tune.

We didn't start this war RH. We had no role to play in it and tried to stay out of it until we were egged on by DAESH and that was only to fight them and not Assad or his Forces.

I am very glad the coalition answered that call, because I find DAESH extremely abhorrent and I genuinely feel very sorry for the plight of Syrians, the refugees and those killed. I also believe that the coalition is trying to make positive changes where these injustices don't happen in the future. You just want a Status Quo. Will you be happy when another 300,000 innocent Syrians are killed?

Enter stage right the other super power RUSSIA backed by China and Iran and all the UN Nations that are NOT part of your coalition (140?) I can see nothing in any MSM or independent reports where Russia is making any demands, apart from the obvious Assad one, about who will and who will not be taking part in negotiations, with the exception of their common enemy the Extreme Islamist Terrorist group Daesh and all their sub component parts.

Assad is a no go for us. Russia can have anything it wants, but we are not going back to the SAME Status Quo.

Russia is starting to see things our way. The reason for this is because they are there to protect their strategic interests and they no longer believe that the coalition wants to take away those interests from under its feet. They are being told that the Coalition is no threat to their interests and as a result, they are starting to turn on Assad.

I have seen nothing to say that Turkey with its proven links to terrorism and Daesh, should be excluded or countries like Saudi, UAE and the other Arab dictatorships (US Client States) who all seem to be involved in supporting terrorism in one way or another, as of course are the NATO States and their affiliates.

Did you mention Iran? No of course not.

I think there is a long way to go and whatever the outcome there will have to be compromise but, the result has to be decided in the interests of the Syrian people and the vested interests of other Nations, States and western economic interests are of secondary consideration.

The compromise is that Assad will go. And that is where it's going. The Gulf States will send in Ground Forces too so unless Russia wants all out war (which I seriously doubt) then they will compromise and they will protect their interests at the same time which is their main objective. This wasn't about Assad after all.

BTW: At least by spreading my information sources over the extremes of all sides of the argument I have the basis to create an informed opinion. You may not agree with it but at least I will present a reasoned argument. I think you are much more of an extremist in your views than those you have such a loathing for and as a result your views have become irrational.

I don't have a problem with you spreading your information sources or for your opinions. But I don't find your opinions reasonable. I am still scratching my head as to why you want Assad at the expense of so many people. I think you're a good bloke and well intentioned and smart, but I also feel you're a bit jaded to always uptake a very anti West/Coalition/NATO agenda.

There is only one solution for Syria and that lies solely with the Syrian people al we can do is help to ensure that is the case. If they decide that they would prefer an Sunni Islamic State under Sharia law with allegiance to the Caliphate and that is what the vote shows, then we should accept that and take steps to ensure it has no way of expanding its influence across the globe.

You keep saying that the solution rests with the Syrian People and I end up asking you if the Sunnis have a role to play in this solution? I ask that because under Assad, they never have. You refuse to answer the main underlying issue.

I already told you that I have no issue with Syrians determining the future of Syria. That is our position from day 1 too.

Create a 'no mans land' around the ME, including Israel, cut all economic ties and support including travel by any means, communications, technology, food, medicine and of course, weapons and leave them to it. We will have done our best!

No I don'y agree at all.

I have a very deep respect for the Arabic People. They have a lot to offer the world. I always focus on the positives and I see many. An absolutely beautiful people, with great customs, music and food. I love it all. Their family unit bonds are strong and they are less decadent than us Westerners.

I feel right at home in the Gulf States. I prefer seeing life in a traditional Arabic setting than I do in downtown New York, Sydney, London or Limassol.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

We didn't start this war RH. We had no role to play in it and tried to stay out of it until we were egged on by DAESH and that was only to fight them and not Assad or his Forces.

But ‘We’ did start it or at least encouraged the civil war, as ‘We’ did in Ukraine and of course Iraq and Libya! If Assad had not been in the position of having to fight on three fronts he, with a fairly modern army and support from ‘us’ he would have crushed ISIS when it first raised it s head. Remember also that it was the actions of the West that gave rise to Daesh in the first place. (and all the other Islamic terror groups) and were instrumental in starting and encouraging most of the conficts in the area.

Assad is a no go for us. Russia can have anything it wants, but we are not going back to the SAME Status Quo.

Once again I say that it has nothing to do with ‘us’ or the Russians or anyone else, as to who will or will not rule Syria. We can only do our best to ensure as far as possible that they (that is ALL Syrians) have a free and fair vote, and that is not possible if the two sides are killing one another in a pointless civil war.

Russia is starting to see things our way. The reason for this is because they are there to protect their strategic interests and they no longer believe that the coalition wants to take away those interests from under its feet. They are being told that the Coalition is no threat to their interests and as a result, they are starting to turn on Assad.

I see it the other way round simply because Putin has NOT given in to the West’s demands and has managed to create a situation where there is room for compromise. I don’t agree that Putin is turning against Assad, in fact I don’t think his position has changed one iota!

The interest I see Russia protecting,( unlike the situation with the Western coalition) is not commercial or political gain but to prevent this Islamic uprising from becoming a problem in the southern Russian States. Do you remember the trouble Russia had in Chechnya? Islamic insurgency is not new to them and yet at the time they were fighting Islamic extremism, the west was full of condemnation of their actions. Now the boot is on the other foot and the Islamists have become a threat to the western way of life, so our attitude changes! As I have said before I see an example of double standards by the west (just one of many examples ..... the most obvious being in Ukraine where the US condemn Russian actions in supporting ethnic Russians defending themselves against an evil government but are happy to supply weapons to rebels to depose a government they don’t like. Don’t you think that is rather hypocritical?)

Did you mention Iran? No of course not.

I don’t see the connection? If you mean by supporting Hezbollah they are supporting terrorism, then again rather hypocritical of you as the US supports dozens of ‘terrorist’ groups around the world.

I don't have a problem with you spreading your information sources or for your opinions. But I don't find your opinions reasonable. I am still scratching my head as to why you want Assad at the expense of so many people. I think you're a good bloke and well intentioned and smart, but I also feel you're a bit jaded to always uptake a very anti West/Coalition/NATO agenda.

To me actions speak louder than words and to accept these actions and the logic behind them, I look for something substantive to support the argument. You cannot do that by just taking what you read in the MSM because they have editorial policies which immediately show a bias. This is why you have ‘right’ and ‘left’ wing news outlets ....... that is determined by the management, not the journalists!

The independent news outlets make no editorial decisions and print the article ‘as-is’. They even have clauses stating that ‘The views stated are not necessarily the views of the organisation/site’ even then, what you are often getting is opinion. However, a good article will provide the links to the authors sources, which are very often Government papers or UN publications and very often each longer than the article itself .......... but rarely, if ever, do they reference The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights!!!!!

......... they are less decadent than us Westerners.

I agree with that absolutely but maybe they need to chillout a bit and recognise women as equals in society? The rest I disagree with. The Iranians I would say, from experience, would meet what you describe but the Arabs are a different breed altogether and I found very few that I would trust as far as the end of the road.

If you prefer the Arab way of life to that you have, you must be looking at Dubai city, Riyadh or Jeddah because outside those areas and similar urban cities and towns throughout the Middle East .......... it is a great big shit heap!!!!

Have a Happy New Year ....................

[Paphitis]

We didn't start this war RH. We had no role to play in it and tried to stay out of it until we were egged on by DAESH and that was only to fight them and not Assad or his Forces.

But ‘We’ did start it or at least encouraged the civil war, as ‘We’ did in Ukraine and of course Iraq and Libya! If Assad had not been in the position of having to fight on three fronts he, with a fairly modern army and support from ‘us’ he would have crushed ISIS when it first raised it s head. Remember also that it was the actions of the West that gave rise to Daesh in the first place. (and all the other Islamic terror groups) and were instrumental in starting and encouraging most of the conficts in the area.

Let's get serious here RH. We played absolutely no role whatsoever and we did not even offer any support of any kind to any of the rebels including the FSA. Only Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UAE, Bahrain, QATAR, Kuwait and Oman did.

We only just started supporting them a few months ago when every man and his dog was attacking them. Yes, they are the one's fighting on 3 fronts. Assad is trying to desperately cling to power, but the cats were are among the chickens so too late.

Assad is a no go for us. Russia can have anything it wants, but we are not going back to the SAME Status Quo.

Once again I say that it has nothing to do with ‘us’ or the Russians or anyone else, as to who will or will not rule Syria. We can only do our best to ensure as far as possible that they (that is ALL Syrians) have a free and fair vote, and that is not possible if the two sides are killing one another in a pointless civil war.

Are you bloody joking. The coalition doesn't want to rule Syria. We don't even need any bases there unlike Pootin.

We are only there to fight DAESH, and right now we are giving the FSA enough material support to hold their ground. We are responsible for bringing the Sunnis, Yazidis, Kurds and Turkmen to the table.

You had no such ambition. With every Syrian being free to vote, Assad is a gonna and you know that. To even suggest that Assad will win means that you have no intention of ever having fair elections. Not to mention the fact that we will NEVER accept any elections run by the regime and recognize the outcome as being fair.

Russia is starting to see things our way. The reason for this is because they are there to protect their strategic interests and they no longer believe that the coalition wants to take away those interests from under its feet. They are being told that the Coalition is no threat to their interests and as a result, they are starting to turn on Assad.

I see it the other way round simply because Putin has NOT given in to the West’s demands and has managed to create a situation where there is room for compromise. I don’t agree that Putin is turning against Assad, in fact I don’t think his position has changed one iota!

I think he has given in. They have been negotiating the terms of Assad's transition. The transition is on the table.

I won't call it a surrender, but a resolution everyone is happy with including Pootin.

The interest I see Russia protecting,( unlike the situation with the Western coalition) is not commercial or political gain but to prevent this Islamic uprising from becoming a problem in the southern Russian States. Do you remember the trouble Russia had in Chechnya? Islamic insurgency is not new to them and yet at the time they were fighting Islamic extremism, the west was full of condemnation of their actions. Now the boot is on the other foot and the Islamists have become a threat to the western way of life, so our attitude changes! As I have said before I see an example of double standards by the west (just one of many examples ..... the most obvious being in Ukraine where the US condemn Russian actions in supporting ethnic Russians defending themselves against an evil government but are happy to supply weapons to rebels to depose a government they don’t like. Don’t you think that is rather hypocritical?)

Pootin just created an issue for himself in Southern Russia. Pootin's actions are purely for strategic gain. Pootin has no friends, least of all Assad. That is the way they operate. Russia is interested in maintaining their bases, nothing more and we are willing to re-assure their presence. That is the final nail in Assad's coffin right there.

The Islamists are no threat to us, no matter how much the media and a few politicians beat it up. Russia is the country that will experience problems, not us.

Did you mention Iran? No of course not.

I don’t see the connection? If you mean by supporting Hezbollah they are supporting terrorism, then again rather hypocritical of you as the US supports dozens of ‘terrorist’ groups around the world.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. Iran is an Islamic Republic.

And no, just because you want to throw the terrorist label to some 50+ militias does not make it the case.

I don't have a problem with you spreading your information sources or for your opinions. But I don't find your opinions reasonable. I am still scratching my head as to why you want Assad at the expense of so many people. I think you're a good bloke and well intentioned and smart, but I also feel you're a bit jaded to always uptake a very anti West/Coalition/NATO agenda.

To me actions speak louder than words and to accept these actions and the logic behind them, I look for something substantive to support the argument. You cannot do that by just taking what you read in the MSM because they have editorial policies which immediately show a bias. This is why you have ‘right’ and ‘left’ wing news outlets ....... that is determined by the management, not the journalists!

But you continue to give credence to some unusual sources. Only yesterday you were giving me links to RT, and Smirnoff.

The independent news outlets make no editorial decisions and print the article ‘as-is’. They even have clauses stating that ‘The views stated are not necessarily the views of the organisation/site’ even then, what you are often getting is opinion. However, a good article will provide the links to the authors sources, which are very often Government papers or UN publications and very often each longer than the article itself .......... but rarely, if ever, do they reference The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights!!!!!

My wife is (was) a journalist. The only thing that you can say about the mainstream media in the West is that they do have their bias, but more than anything all media outlets are after the advertising dollar. So it is all about the ratings. They are NOT influenced by Government. I would say that the really big outlets influence the Government. News Limited for instance is probably the most politically powerful business on the planet and its influence is global with over 500,000 employees.

......... they are less decadent than us Westerners.

I agree with that absolutely but maybe they need to chillout a bit and recognise women as equals in society? The rest I disagree with. The Iranians I would say, from experience, would meet what you describe but the Arabs are a different breed altogether and I found very few that I would trust as far as the end of the road.

I find them very chilled out. A lot more chilled out than us Westerners.

I think you're also a little mixed up. Iran has Sharia law. They stone women just like Saudi Arabia. They also hang homosexuals from cranes.

Sorry RH, but you're on a BIG loser here. The most progressive States in the region are the American Client States as you put it - QATAR, UAE, Oman, Bahrain and Kuwait. And the people are lovely, humble and I TRUST them completely and never felt in any danger unlike Tehran.

As with them adopting Western Values, that will come with a little time. We can't just force them. But they look at us and think what for.

I love everything about their culture RH. There is a lot to like. Even the morning and evening calls to prayer. I could listen to that for hours. You go into their mosques and see the most impressive artworks and architecture. they are NOT STUPID or inferior! Culturally, I think they are superior in many ways to anything European, North American and dare I say it, anything Greek.

If you prefer the Arab way of life to that you have, you must be looking at Dubai city, Riyadh or Jeddah because outside those areas and similar urban cities and towns throughout the Middle East .......... it is a great big shit heap!!!!

Have a Happy New Year ....................

Not anymore RH. Riyadh and Jeddah are doing just fine. Much better than Tehran. But not only Dubai, but the more conservative Abu Dhabi and even Muscat.

But of course I would prefer Dubai and Abu Dhabi, because you can do just about anything there as if you were living in the USA.

[miltiades]

Your bursting with pure shit.
What fucking customs you imbasill, i suppose stoning women to death chopping off arms, hanging homosexuals , are acts that you find admirable. You mate lost the plot long ago.

By the way why dont you stay there and orgasm every tome you hear the calls to prayers.

[Paphitis]

Your bursting with pure shit.
What fucking customs you imbasill, i suppose stoning women to death chopping off arms, hanging homosexuals , are acts that you find admirable. You mate lost the plot long ago.

By the way why dont you stay there and orgasm every tome you hear the calls to prayers.

Everything you cluster fuck. In America, there is a shooting rampage every other week. People are gunned down in the streets every day.

They got customs and culture alright. The music, food, custom, humility, the dress, the politeness and many things more!

I'm an Atheist, but there are many things I can appreciate from the Islamic Faith. Firstly, their mosques are beautiful, especially the Grand Mosques in each city. The architecture amazes me. The art and engravings inside put any Western Artist to shame. I like the same things about the Orthodox Church but the Arabs leave us for dead and everyone else to boot.

The belly dances, the hookahs, the pastries, the imams call to prayer, and cuisine is the best. The women, those liberated enough, are gorgeous. But I wouldn't be a smart arse because they might cut your testicles off before the surgeon gets the chance.

At the same time and as religious as they are, you will always see the extravagent, be surprised and the real level of progress socially, economically, in education, technology and anything you can point a stick at. They are having a Renaissance in some parts. Ferrari make more sales in Abu Dhabi per capita than anywhere else. I got to drive one on one of their empty highways. Went past a cop at well over 200 with an accredited driver. Try doing that in the UK or America and lot land in jail.

You think the Brits have culture? The Americans? The Greeks? Or Europeans? My arse!

Face it old man! You're nothing but a hypocrite! A racist intolerant fool and very judgemental. The Arabs will bend over backwards to help you if you look them in the eye and communicate in their language.

I look for the bueatiful things in all people and Arabs have quite a few to boast about.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

Are you bloody joking. The coalition doesn't want to rule Syria. We don't even need any bases there unlike Pootin

I didn’t suggest the 'we' wanted to rule but it appears that they want a very big say in who does! That I see that as interference in another states affairs. BTW: The Russian base was little more than a bunkering facility and the airfields only came into use in this conflict when Assad asked for Russian assistance. Putin has made it very clear that when the job is done Russia will withdraw ....... at least form the airfields. The port of Tarsus is under lease and was run right down until quite recently.

..... With every Syrian being free to vote, Assad is a gonna and you know that

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I regard the Syrians as a practical people and they will choose what suits them. They did not rise in their thousands to join the FSA, the FSA was/is a relatively very small band of army mutineers who were against Assad because he favoured Alawites in the top ranks. Most of this opposition fighting force are NOT ex-army. Assad has even offered them an amnesty on the condition that individuals have not committed human right crimes. They turned a revolution of the people against Assads rule into a civil war, then the West backed them and supplied weapons. Faced with what they had under Assads rule and the prospect of another Islamic State run by fanatics ..... I know what I would vote for what I know is possible .......... not a LA LA land of Sharia law and all that brings with it.(a bit like looking for paradise and 72 virgins????)

Not to mention the fact that we will NEVER accept any elections run by the regime and recognize the outcome as being fair

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There you go with the ‘we’ again! Read what I said! “We can only do our best to ensure as far as possible that they (that is ALL Syrians) have a free and fair vote.” I will add ....... that applies irrespective of who takes part or who wins. With a fair vote under the auspices of the UN I think it quite likely that the Syrian people will choose the Devil they know.

I think he (Putin) has given in. They have been negotiating the terms of Assad's transition. The transition is on the table.

That is not ‘Assad must go!’ which was the very vocal demand of the west until Putin joined in the fight. Assad will NOT ‘organise’ the election process but his party will be part of it as will representatives of the FSA and both Sunni and Shia communities.

Pootin's actions are purely for strategic gain.

Russia is the largest country on the Planet. Putin has no need or wish for strategic/territorial gain. Russia is rich in natural resources and in some spheres is way ahead of the US in technology. He may have a couple of overseas basis but tell me; How many military facilities does the US have overseas? I think if you check, it is between 800 and 1000. Now, being pragmatic ..... who does that say has the largest strategic interests outside their own national borders? Russia also has a great potential to become a major economic power ...... in time.

The US is going the other way! Instead of using its own manpower to produce its own products, big business has transferred all the manufacturing jobs to places where they get cheap labour and can make maximum profits. The same applies to many EU countries particularly the UK.

The Islamists are no threat to us, no matter how much the media and a few politicians beat it up. Russia is the country that will experience problems, not us.

Really? Then what is all this ‘War on Terror’ crap that has put the fear of God into the people of the US and many European countries? Russia showed in Chechnya what happens when Islamists prod the Russian Bear. Of course they are smart enough to realize that just bombing the shit out of them is not the final solution, so they keep the lid firmly nailed down and just like the US does, they make sure that the guy running the show maybe a bastard but he is one of their bastards! The difference between the two Nations is that the Russians are doing it on their soil but the US and their allies chose somebody else’s back yard and proxy armies, to protect their interests.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. Iran is an Islamic Republic.

Read the history of the reason Hezbollah came into being and why Iran supported and trained them and still supplies them with weapons! I notice you don’t question Israel’s support for terrorist groups! Some of them operate inside Iran ..... they are the ones that assassinate their Nuclear scientists!

Hezbollah is defence force, like the IDF claims to be, but they have something to defend their country against .......... the IDF! Or have you forgotten what happened in Lebanon when the Israelis murdered aroud 3000 Palestinian refugees? That gave birth to Hezbollah ..... check it out and twice since then they have repelled invasions by the Israelis into Lebanon.

BTW: You keep saying how Turkey had the right to shoot down that Russian SU because it strayed into their airspace? Do you know that Israeli jets attack Syria almost daily (at least weekly) to actually attack Syrian facilities which of course are always weapons destined for Hezbolah .......according to the Israeli’s ..... even then they are not only straying but attacking a sovereign country! Again another example of Western hypocrisy? One day the Syrians (with the help of Russia) is going to bring down an Israeli jet and we will then see whether the ‘airspace infringement’ argument will apply!

But you continue to give credence to some unusual sources. Only yesterday you were giving me links to RT, and Smirnoff.

RT is the equivalent of FOX, CNN, BBC, SKY Al Jazeera etc. what I am more interested in is independent web sites such as Information Clearing House, Global Research, Black Listed News and other ‘credible’ sites that do not rely upon advertising to survive, as you suggest, which is why they are continually asking for donations to support them. These are just to pay the running costs not to pay the authors and journalists who provide the articles. They have a vested interest in providing far more detailed coverage of events than you will ever find in the MSM. Ask your wife about journalistic independence and the MSM? What you describe is how the MSM works, that is not true (or at least to a much lesser extent) to these independent crowd funded ‘publishing’ outlets.

As for your admiration of the Arabs; You obviously mixed with the upper class Arabs, maybe their equivalent of the 1%? I worked at the lower levels of senior management and senior engineers ..... most of whom seemed to be related to ‘somebody’ important ..... it was just like being in Cyprus????? They mainly got their jobs through connections rather than talent or competence!

Not anymore RH.

I have to admit I am going back about 15 years, so my recollections of Saudi may be out of date.

But of course I would prefer Dubai and Abu Dhabi, because you can do just about anything there as if you were living in the USA.

There are a lot of foreigners rotting in their Prisons, who made that mistake.

[miltiades]

The Arab women are ....gorgeous

[Robin Hood]

The Arab women are ....gorgeous

How would you know that? The Arab women I occasionally saw in Saudi always had their faces covered but, if you are referring to Persian/Iranian women ....... who do not have to cover their faces ....... then I agree with you but then, they are not Arabs!

[Lordo]

The Arab women are ....gorgeous

you say that in saudi arabia and see what happens to you.