The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


The war against Syria

Everything related to politics in Cyprus and the rest of the world.

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:29 am

bigOz wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.
Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.
A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.
The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

MI 25 has a maximum velocity of over 310 km/hr on full power! Assuming these guys managed accelerating to 300 km/hr applying full power and allowing for acceleration after being warned of a missile attack - that works out to be 0.083 km/sec. Turkish F16s use AIM-9 sidewinders capable of doing 0.50 km /sec. (Mach-1.5 speed!).

If the helicopter was stationary, it would have been hit after around 25 seconds average from firing and it would probably be falling 2km inside the Turkish territory. With full power, MI25 would traveled another 2.08 km in 25 seconds and got hit just across the border. :D

Note I said "25 sec average"! This is taking into account the time it takes for the sidewinder to reach Mach 1.5 - a good 7-8 secs if not more! It does not travel at Mach-1.5 as soon as it lets go. It needs to accelerate after firing its own rocket.


In my calculations I assumed a speed of 120knots = 222km/hr for the Chopper which is more realistic close to the ground.

Also, the Turkish Airforce would have used a medium range AIM-7 Sparrow not a short range AIM-9 sidewinder.

The F-16 would never get slow enough to target the Chopper at close range.

At these speeds, it is possible for the Turks to have actually fired their missiles whilst the helicopter was still in Turkish Airspace.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:47 am

kimon07 wrote:
bigOz wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.
Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.
A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.
The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

MI 25 has a maximum velocity of over 310 km/hr on full power! Assuming these guys managed accelerating to 300 km/hr applying full power and allowing for acceleration after being warned of a missile attack - that works out to be 0.083 km/sec. Turkish F16s use AIM-9 sidewinders capable of doing 0.50 km /sec. (Mach-1.5 speed!).

If the helicopter was stationary, it would have been hit after around 25 seconds average from firing and it would probably be falling 2km inside the Turkish territory. With full power, MI25 would traveled another 2.08 km in 25 seconds and got hit just across the border. :D

Note I said "25 sec average"! This is taking into account the time it takes for the sidewinder to reach Mach 1.5 - a good 7-8 secs if not more! It does not travel at Mach-1.5 as soon as it lets go. It needs to accelerate after firing its own rocket.


Now, me not being a specialist I will ask a silly question. If the helicopter was hit (blasted to pieces) by an AIM-9, how come the pilot/s managed to bail out (to be beheaded on the ground)????


Some helicopters such as the Mi-25 and Apache have Ejection Seats which fire to the side for obvious reasons.

The Mi-25 is quite an advance and sophisticated Russian Gunship Helicopter. Some people rate it as high as the Kamov K-50 or the Apache.

The pilots would have known they were toast in which case they would convert speed to altitude (steep climb) to get to a safe altitude and then pull their Ejection lever.

Shame that the pilot was beheaded. It just proves that the FSA are a bunch of animals.

I would like to ask what is gained by executing the pilot so barbarically? Once they are captured, then that's it. POW!!!
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 32303
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: The war against Syria

Postby bigOz » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:46 am

paphitis I need to correct you on few issues: :)

The helicopter was recorded as flying at 24500 ft! Not a level at which humans can breathe - also temperatures of less than -20 degrees! If anything, they would have dived to reach a safe altitude for ejecting (which would have increased their speed rapidly).

AIM7 sparrow has the same speed as AIM9 (up to Mach 2.5).
Paphitis wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
bigOz wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.
Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.
A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.
The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

MI 25 has a maximum velocity of over 310 km/hr on full power! Assuming these guys managed accelerating to 300 km/hr applying full power and allowing for acceleration after being warned of a missile attack - that works out to be 0.083 km/sec. Turkish F16s use AIM-9 sidewinders capable of doing 0.50 km /sec. (Mach-1.5 speed!).

If the helicopter was stationary, it would have been hit after around 25 seconds average from firing and it would probably be falling 2km inside the Turkish territory. With full power, MI25 would traveled another 2.08 km in 25 seconds and got hit just across the border. :D

Note I said "25 sec average"! This is taking into account the time it takes for the sidewinder to reach Mach 1.5 - a good 7-8 secs if not more! It does not travel at Mach-1.5 as soon as it lets go. It needs to accelerate after firing its own rocket.


Now, me not being a specialist I will ask a silly question. If the helicopter was hit (blasted to pieces) by an AIM-9, how come the pilot/s managed to bail out (to be beheaded on the ground)????


Some helicopters such as the Mi-25 and Apache have Ejection Seats which fire to the side for obvious reasons.

The Mi-25 is quite an advance and sophisticated Russian Gunship Helicopter. Some people rate it as high as the Kamov K-50 or the Apache.

The pilots would have known they were toast in which case they would convert speed to altitude (steep climb) to get to a safe altitude and then pull their Ejection lever.

Shame that the pilot was beheaded. It just proves that the FSA are a bunch of animals.

I would like to ask what is gained by executing the pilot so barbarically? Once they are captured, then that's it. POW!!!

The chopper in question is classified as the same quality as the American gunships. It has radar warning system the minute another aircraft locks on you and even more alarms when a missile is actually fired at you. Hence, the reason why pilots waited to cross into Syrian airspace (400m) before ejecting.

I agree with you that the FSA are a bunch of animals.
User avatar
bigOz
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:19 am
Location: Girne - Cyprus

Re: The war against Syria

Postby kimon07 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:08 am

bigOz wrote:The chopper in question is classified as the same quality as the American gunships. It has radar warning system the minute another aircraft locks on you and even more alarms when a missile is actually fired at you. Hence, the reason why pilots waited to cross into Syrian airspace (400m) before ejecting.


The problem is that the choper in question was a mil mi 17, not 25 or 28. And the 17s are not equiped with ejection seats. And I doubt whether the 17s operated by the Syrians have warning systems for inbound missiles either. On the other hand, Turkish authorities reported that the pilots "ejected" AFTER the choper was "damaged" according to the report below. How do you explain all these puzzles?

Turkey reported that the helicopter pilots ejected after their craft was damaged at around 2:27 p.m. local time but no other information is available. This is an interesting piece of information because it seems that Mi-17s do not have ejection seats. Only Mi-28s and above have ejection seats, so either the Turkish government got the type of aircraft wrong, or the pilots did not eject as reported by the Deputy Prime Minister.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... h-airspace


Attack helicopters, coaxial rotors, and ejection seats
Here's one of those situations where something looks really good on paper, but nobody ends up actually using it, so it must have some real drawbacks that I'm not thinking of. That something that looks good on paper is the Kamov Ka-50/52 Hokum:

Unlike most modern attack helicopters, like the Apache, Eurocopter Tiger, and Russia's own Mil Mi-28 Havoc, it has (1) contra-rotating coaxial rotors and no tail rotor, and (2) an ejection seat for the pilot (and copilot in the Ka-52 two-seater).

The advantages of an ejection seat are obvious. I don't think anyone would ever take a modern fixed-wing attack or fighter aircraft seriously if it lacked ejection seats. Yet, to my knowledge, the Ka-50/52 is the only helicopter on the market with one.

As for coaxial rotors, which are a bit of a Kamov trademark, they seem like a good idea too. First, there's no vulnerable tail rotor, and no vulnerable transmission for the tail rotor in the tail boom. Second, this sort of design allows for all of the power of the helicopter to be dedicated to creating lift and forward momentum, which I would think would increase the payload and maximum speed of a helicopter with a given engine. It also, from what I've read, improves maneuverability, though I don't understand helicopter flight dynamics well enough to really explain why.

So all of this sounds pretty good. Yet not only have the USA, Europe, and China not developed any attack helicopters with coaxial rotors and/or ejection seats, but Russia passed up the Hokum to choose the more-traditional Mi-28 as its main attack helicopter. So...what gives? What am I missing here?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... tion-seats
kimon07
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 3386
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:22 am

Re: The war against Syria

Postby yialousa1971 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:09 pm

Britain’s ex-envoy explains how Israel fabricated Syria intelligence

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:36PM GMT
source: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/20/325092/envoy/

Image
Craig John Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan

Image
Britain's GCHQ listening post on Mount Troodos in Cyprus

former British ambassador to Uzbekistan says the U.S. government has been deceived by the Israeli regime through fabricated evidence into believing that the Syrian government forces used chemical weapons in an attack on the suburbs of Damascus on August 21.

Craig John Murray, now a political activist, has written in his official website that U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry’s claims about having access to communication intercepts of Syrian military and officials organizing chemical weapons attacks are sheer lies.

Murray says the British intelligence has no idea of such radio and communication intercepts between the Syrians despite having the most modern and advanced electronic tapping post on the Mountainous Troodos region of Cyprus. The tapping post monitors all radio, satellite and microwave traffic across the Middle East, he says.

According to Murray, “The GCHQ listening post on Mount Troodos in Cyprus is arguably the most valued asset which the UK contributes to UK/US intelligence cooperation. The communications intercept agencies, GCHQ in the UK and NSA in the US, share all their intelligence reports (as do the CIA and MI6). Troodos is valued enormously by the NSA. It monitors all radio, satellite and microwave traffic across the Middle East, ranging from Egypt and Eastern Libya right through to the Caucasus. Even almost all landline telephone communication in this region is routed through microwave links at some stage, picked up on Troodos”.

This is while that, as Murray states, the U.S. does not have its own comparable facility for the Middle East.

“Troodos is highly effective - the jewel in the crown of British intelligence. Its capacity and efficiency, as well as its reach, is staggering. I should state that I have actually been inside all of this facility and been fully briefed on its operations and capabilities, while I was head of the FCO Cyprus Section in the early 1990s. This is fact, not speculation”, wrote Murray in a web post.

Murray disputes John Kerry’s allegations saying that “It is therefore very strange, to say the least, that John Kerry claims to have access to communications intercepts of Syrian military and officials organising chemical weapons attacks, which intercepts were not available to the British Joint Intelligence Committee”.

The intercept evidence provided to the U.S. government has been prepared by the Israeli regime’s spying apparatus Mossad, Murray explains, adding that Mossad have nothing comparable to the UK’s Troodos facility in Cyprus.

Now the question is: “How can Troodos have missed this (communication intercepts between the Syrians) if Mossad got it?”

The Israeli regime has been responsible for several illegal bombings and missile strikes in Syria, which have killed hundreds if not thousands of civilians, including women and children. The regime’s direct involvement in the Syrian civil war has not received just one case of condemnation from the West. Subsequent to its involvement, it has also fabricated “intelligence” and provided the U.S. with the fabrications to spark the U.S. military’s invasion of the Arab country.

“The answer to the Troodos Conundrum is simple. Troodos did not pick up the intercepts because they do not exist. Mossad fabricated them. John Kerry’s “evidence” is the shabbiest of tricks”, Murray concludes.

Meanwhile, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Maguire in a video interview posted on the web spoke of her personal visit to Syria, where she says people organized and supported by Washington are violent groups, which have no mercy for the innocents and are not after peace in Syria.

Mairead Maguire believes that Syria is being used as a proxy war by Britain, the U.S. and their regional allies both totalitarian dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

“Both Arab regimes in Qatar and Saudi Arabia will pay for a possible US-led military invasion of Syria with their petrodollars. The two do not only meddle in the internal affairs of Syria and in the conflict in the Arab country, but they are also responsible for a lot of violence and bloodshed that has taken place and is still happening in Syria since [more than] two years”, Mairead states.
User avatar
yialousa1971
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6260
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:55 pm
Location: With my friends on the Cyprus forum

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:09 pm

Yialousa:
Britain’s ex-envoy explains how Israel fabricated Syria intelligence
Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:36PM GMT
source: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/20/325092/envoy/

This story came out at the time Kerry made the claim about the US Intelligence having intercepted the conversation but made very little progress in the MSM and was almost totally ignored by Hague who was still banging on at the time, about the ‘undeniable’ proof that the ‘Assad Regime’ was ‘undoubtedly’ behind the Ghouta gas attack.

If any of us were caught out clearly trying to commit an act of what can only be classified as terrorism, we would be locked up immediately and eventually would go down for a very, very long time. So what are Obama, Kerry, Cameron, Hague and Hollande doing still walking around spouting all the lies to justify war crimes and crimes against humanity? What they are doing is conspiring to commit an act of War and they should all have International Warrants out for their arrest.

The evidence in the independent press points one way and that is not at Assad but to the Terrorists who are funded by the US and their allies, the only evidence that points at Assad is what the US says they have as conclusive proof but cannot show it to anyone to protect national security. What a load of bulls**t! :x

The following article is informative and shows a time line starting even before the uprising in Syria a couple of years ago. This whole saga was pre-planned and the evidence is out there that proves it. The problem is that compared to those that read the usual news sheets like the Daily Mail, NY Times etc. or any of the MSM outlets, who will never see this information, those that do read the independent reports are a minority and usually referred to as ‘conspiracy theorists’. :roll:

Quote: the last four paragraphs of the article …………..

Revealed is a conspiracy so insidious, so outrageous, and a web of lies so tangled, that Western governments perhaps count on their populations to disbelieve their tax money is being used to intentionally fund and arm savage terrorism while purposefully fuelling a sectarian bloodbath whose death toll is sounded daily by the very people driving it up to astronomical heights. The cards are down – the US has been exposed as openly funding, arming, and supplying Al Qaeda in Syria for over two years and in turn, is directly responsible for the death, atrocities, and humanitarian disasters within and along Syria’s borders that have resulted.

While the US attempts to sell military intervention on behalf of Al Qaeda in Syria, using the flimsy, yet familiar pretext of “chemical weapons,” it appears that before even one American boot officially touches Syrian soil, an already horrific crime against humanity of historic proportions has been committed by the US and its allies against the Syrian people.
This is a crime against humanity the West intends to fully compound with its new narrative of “moderates” fighting Al Qaeda. The goal is to justify the continued torrent of cash and weapons into Syria to fuel the conflict and perhaps to have “safe zones” imposed across Syria’s borders under the guise of “running out” Al Qaeda. Of course, Al Qaeda will continue to be armed and funded by the very interests “running them out” deeper and deeper into Syria.

It is important to understand two undeniable, verified facts. First, there are no moderates in Syria, and second, Al Qaeda’s ascendance in Syria is the direct results of the West intentionally arming them, funding them, training them, providing them with tactical, logistical, and strategic support, as well as financing them through the purchase of Al Qaeda-controlled oil fields. Understanding these facts lifts the veil regarding the latest round of lies and fabrications by the West to regain the initiative amidst their premeditated, 2-plus year assault on Syria.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/in-syria-within-the-opposition-there-are-no-moderate-rebels/5350647
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4349
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Get Real! » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:51 pm

Israeli Troops Attack EU Diplomats, Seize West Bank Aid

http://news.antiwar.com/2013/09/20/isra ... -bank-aid/
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:21 am

Get Real! wrote:Israeli Troops Attack EU Diplomats, Seize West Bank Aid

http://news.antiwar.com/2013/09/20/isra ... -bank-aid/


The female French politician that was driving this truck full of aid to a group of Bedouin who had just been made homeless when the IDF bulldozed their homes, was provocative in her actions and clearly a threat. The IDF were therefore fully justified in taking pre-emptive retaliatory action against an existential threat to their National Security and merely acted in self defence. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Netanyahu will today make a statement in which he will show without question that these EU diplomats crossed a Red-Line .......... and a Blue one ........... and a Green one ............ and a Yellow one ......... and :lol:

This story is clearly anti-Semitic as it is well know that the IDF never attacks unarmed defenceless civilians! :shock: :roll:

What does this have to do with Syria? :?:
Robin Hood
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4349
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Limassol

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Kikapu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:36 pm

bigOz wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Maybe but that is hardly relevant. What is relevant is whether the Syrian Chopper violated Turkish Airspace. If it did, then the Turks had their right to protect their border.

Whether or not it did or not is very hard to prove. Only the Turks and Syrians know the truth. Perhaps the Americans also know with their Satellite and surveillance technology.

What I think is obvious is that the Chopper engaged FSA rebels near the border, and may have ventured into Turkish Airspace to engage the FSA that may have been using Turkey for protection.

The Turks picked up the activity from their sentries, and radar and scrambled a couple of jets. Syrian Chopper tries to leave, and departs Turkish Airpace but is hit in Syrian Airspace.

I don't think this is adequate revenge for the Phantom. So I do not believe that is the motive.

In order to avenge the Phantom, would mean at least 1 or 2 Syrian MIGs and within their airspace to send the regime a clear message!

No one is questioning the Syrian chopper entering Turkish airspace, Paphitis. Question is why it was shot down in Syrian airspace. Turks claim to have warned the chopper many times by radio that it was in their airspace, so once the chopper then decides to leave the Turkish airspace and have left the Turkish airspace, it was then shot down. It doesn't make sense, does it, other than the fact the Turkish jets did not get there fast enough to shoot the chopper down in Turkish airspace?

You heard the phrase "beggars can't be choosers" haven't you? Sure the Turks would have loved to have shot down couple of fast moving Migs to revenge for the F4 instead of a sitting duck chopper, but you take what you can get after waiting for a long while! :wink:

Reh Kikapuşt! The Syrian chopper was not fired on in Syrian Airspace - watch and listen to news besides what your brains manipulate as a form of emotional masturbation!

The whole of Turkey witnessed the remains of the chopper 400 METRES AWAY FROM THE TURKİSH VILLAGE AT THE BORER! It was shown by at least two different Turkish TV crew who walked the odd 400 metres into Syria (Rebel area) and recorded the wreckage on videao - with scenes of the Turkish village in the background.

The radar traces and the aircraft movements shows the F16 firing the missile when the chopper was still 2 km inside the Turkish airspace, not responding to air traffic control calls. You intentionally ignore what I wrote in an earlier post; as a pilot I can tell you it would take less than 30 seconds for a military chopper (probably 15-20 seconds if running away on full power) to cover the 2 km to the border after realising it was fired at. I missile fired more than 10 km away (as was the case here) would take about 10-15 seconds to hit the target plus the time it takes the distance already covered by the chopper. Simple mathematics say that a chopper 2 km inside the border, speeding towards it, chased by a missile fired from 10 km away is bound to be hit just inside the Syrian border as it crossed it!

What part of the above is it you do not comprehend? Start functioning the second (one track) brain cell you might possess! You are still asking "...but why was it shot inside the Syrian airspace?". Well, once fired the fucking missiles do not have a recognition button that can self destruct once over enemy borders! They would chase the target all the way to Damascus if it was travelling fast enough! :roll:

AND this was a helicopter from a hostile country who threatened to use chemical and/or other missiles against her neighbours including Turkey, flying at 24,500 feet INSIDE the Turkish border. If your claims were one tenth right, the whole of Europe as well as Russia would have been screaming their heads off at Turkey. So what is your problem?


Hey, BigToss, your numbers did not add up, which is why I questioned your post. You were trying to put a square peg into a round hole that just did not fit, but I have noticed you have changed your figures around a little answering Paphitis so that it does all fit, like increasing the helicopters speed to 300 km/hr while escaping and reducing the air-to-air missile to Mach 1.5 from the average Mach 3 just so to prove that the missile(s) were fired while the helicopter was in Turkish airspace, but was struck in Syrian airspace.. Why did you now change your figures BigToss? Check out the "The Sidewinder Family" air-to-air here http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article1.html . Mach 1.5 does not exist. Mach 2.5+ is the norm for the range used, as was the case in this incident.

As for any accuracy of any TV reporting where the chopper crashed can only be taken with a pinch of salt. We are talking about Turkish "no freedom of expression" news here as we have witnessed with the Gezi park riots. The news TV just say and show what the government approves by and large. Don't expect the truth to be told by these "pussy whipped" reporters. When the Turkish F4 was shot down by Syria, Turkey made all kinds of excuses as to the location of the F4 when it was shot down, ending up in Syrian waters. The rest of the world knew what had happened but they let Erdogan make the claim all the same that the F4 was shot outside Syrian airspace. The same can be said here. But we have all accepted that the Syrian chopper was in Turkish airspace, but what we don't know, for how long in total before it was shot at. If we were to use your figures again, the total flight time of the chopper in Turkish airspace would be 60 seconds to travel 2km into Turkish airspace and then fly 2 km out. Was this really a huge violation that needed to be shot down, especially if the Turks warned the chopper to leave, which to all account it was heading back to Syria. So how long was the chopper in Turkish airspace, and since you want to defend this action, you ought to know.


As for Syria threatening to use chemical weapons on it's neighbours, you are once again talking out of your backside, Tosser. Show us any reputable news making that claim, so obviously the Turks did not panic and shot the chopper down to safeguard themselves from chemical weapons to be used on them. This whole incident looks more and more of revenge action for the F4 incident. I'm not condemning or condoning the whole incident. I'm just trying to figure out what had actually happened and your figures did not help at all, since they were off the wall as the case is with most of your posts. I guess your loyalty to protect Turkey’s version of events is far more important than it is to yourself.
User avatar
Kikapu
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 18050
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:18 pm

Re: The war against Syria

Postby Oceanside50 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:08 pm

what the Americans have done is take away one of Syria's major deterence weapons....Turkey may not be so hesitant to attack now
Oceanside50
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2296
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:45 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Elections

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests