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The war against Syria

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Re: The war against Syria

Postby DrCyprus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:05 am

A piece in Hurriyet about Putin in the ME:

It's something nice to read after a relaxing cup of cafe con leche.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-and ... sCatID=466

As a slap in the face, in December 2012 Forbes Magazine had announced a list of the world’s most powerful people. U.S. President Barack Obama was at the top, followed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Hence last week it didn’t take us by surprise when Russian President Putin emerged as a global leader by initiating and successfully realizing an ambitious plan to eliminate Syria’s chemical weapons which has been accepted not only by the U.S. and the wider world, but also Syrian President Bashar al-Assad himself.

This gives us many hints. First of all, even though neither side has shifted its fundamental position on Syria, Washington and Moscow apparently have absorbed the fact that they cannot afford not to cooperate. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov and former U.S. Secretary of State Hilary Clinton had confirmed this fact last December by saying that both countries “for understandable reasons acknowledge their special responsibility for international security.” Having exerted this responsibility last week, it looks like it is the second “reset” of Russian-U.S. relations, following the first one promised by Obama and then-President Dmitry Medvedev in 2009.

By stopping the war drums and presenting a peaceful prospect, Putin now seems to be wielding more power in the Middle East than Obama. Just last week, Iran’s newly elected President Hassan Rouhani urged Moscow to help resolve their nuclear crisis. Similarly, Egypt’s new military ruler, General al-Sisi, reached out to Putin to help stabilize his position against the Muslim Brotherhood. And the Saudis are just about making a nuclear deal with Russia. Whatever you think about the democratic credentials of these countries, all in all, Russia looks more capable in terms of using leverage in the region.

In the strangest twist of history, we are also facing Putin’s emerging role as a stabilizing peacemaker and a “man of reason” who had been so far slammed for his authoritarianism and described as a patriarch and czar by the international community. In compliance with this emerging “soft” and dovish image, Putin wrote a striking op-ed in the New York Times last week on September 11, the anniversary of the day that began the war on terrorism. He argued that a military strike on Syria would unleash a new wave of terrorism, undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, further destabilize the region and throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance. Sounds like Nelson Mandela, doesn’t he?

Last but not least, the recent developments also signal the end of the era when America had been the sole global superpower. As a result of the Iraq and Afghanistan quagmires and the ongoing Arab uprisings, the U.S. has come to terms with its own limitations and does not rely solely on its strengths and capabilities anymore. It knows that it needs its allies for any regional and international solution and therefore will rely more and more on their direct engagement. This also provides Turkey with the opportunity to play a major and constructive role by placing itself in the frontline of international diplomacy.

This new twist of history reminds me of one of the biggest “twist” hits: “Let’s twist again, twisting time is here”.
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:22 am

bigOz wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Fell in Syrian airspace. Pilots ejected in Syrian airspace. So why did the Turks shoot it in Syrian airspace?


Strong northerly winds perhaps! :wink:

Obviously there's more to this story than it meets the eye. It appears that the chopper was shot down in Syrian airspace, which will make this an act of war on Syria by Turkey, in which case, ALL options are now open to Syria to take against Turkey without involving NATO, since Turkey fired the first shot on the chopper on Syrian territory. Interesting times.

Turkey shared the radar track records with the rest of the world - the Syrian helicopter clearly violated the Turkish border (2 km inside the border when shot at). The aircraft movements in this area are closely watched/recorded via satellite radar by both the Russians and Americans 24 hrs a day (not to mention EU satellites) - if Turkey's claims were unfounded, someone would have been (especially Russia) screaming "murder" by today! :roll: So stop getting over excited for nothing Greek girls and boys :D

Probably the helicopter's warning system alerted the pilots of the incoming missile fired from some 10-12 km away. So they start heading towards Syria before ejecting. A helicopter as such crusing at 125 knots would cover the 2 km in 30 seconds before being hit on Syrian side. If they had no radar warning about an incoming missile what chance did they have of ejecting in time? In any case, voice recordings of the warnings by Turkish airspace control to the helicopter as it approached and entered the Turkish airspace that had no response from the helicopter pilots are also on record. If the Syrians want to accuse anyone of an illegal attack, let them find the black box of the helicopter and hand it over to UN! :roll:
F16.gif


Ejecting out of a helicopter? Now I've heard it all! :lol:

But you are right BigOz! Just because it was shot down in Syrian airspace, does not mean it was always in Syrian Airspace.
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:30 am

Robin Hood wrote:Paphitis:
If the objective was regime change then the US would not accept the Russian Proposals.

Remember, the colloquialism ‘It ain’t over’ till the fat lady sings.’?

Obama has lost miserably to Putin, basically Putin outsmarted him and the US had no option but to go with the idea. The US is not going to take that defeat without looking for another way to achieve the same end ........ that is the removal of Assad and the setting up of Iran as it is still the main goal in the Middle East and has been for almost 60 years.

I stand by what I said .... there will eventually be an incident that will raise the spectre of a US unilateral intervention and if AIPAC can’t swing the vote in the Senate their way, then Obama will get the proverbial pitch-fork up the backside and be made to go it alone because ........ he is expendable ........ the overall plan is not!

You may have noted that in spite of Russia saying the threat of military action is not part of the deal but the UN is, Kerry, Haig and Hollande are still making the threat of military action to enforce the UN resolution. As far as the US is concerned, nothing has changed it has merely been delayed!

Schnauzer:
In short words (for which I am quite famous)......... 'Obama' has had his 'Black Arse' kicked once again.

You bet. This was/is the first time that the US realised that there are limitations to their arbitrary-unilateral decisions-actions. And to their power. And that the rest of the world seems to be determined now, not to let them drug us to adventures which can lead to a global disaster. And this, indeed, DOES make the world not just a bit but much, much safer.


I agree absolutely but unfortunately, as Obama said a coupe of days ago, the US still believes it is ‘exceptional’ and that it is beyond complying with International Law/ Conventions and by association so does Israel. I think this knee in the nuts from Russia, has been a wake-up call for both.

Kimon07:
Your last post( Sep 16, 2013 4:31 pm) ................... hit the nail right on the head!
And this from Schnauzer explains why
.........
"The general voting public are as knowledgeable of 'Politics' as my arse is of Snipe-shooting"........(Quote by Sir B.O'Reilly).


Robin Hood,

I can't agree with anything you say at the moment. The facts on the ground paint a very different picture, and Obama does not seem overly keen on war, but merely possible limited military strikes to destroy Assad's CW arsenal.

Now, this has been avoided for now since Syria has allowed UN Weapons Inspectors in and has agreed to surrender the CW arsenal.

Overall, this is the best result for all involved, including Syria.

Furthermore, there is conclusive proof that Assad was responsible for the CW attack on civilians last month. This is what the evidence is pointing to, not least being the fact that rocket fragments were found at ground zero belonging to the Syrian Armed Forces.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mid ... story.html

So far, everything stated on this forum has just been fabricated hysteria and so far not even one bit has been found to be accurate.

There does not seem to be any major disappointment over the Russian deal. In fact, the general sentiment is that it was the best possible outcome!
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Oceanside50 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:39 am

here's the video of the helicopter going down....

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qghiSuZtA[/youtube]
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby kimon07 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:55 am

bigOz wrote:......Probably the helicopter's warning system alerted the pilots of the incoming missile fired from some 10-12 km away. So they start heading towards Syria before ejecting. A helicopter as such crusing at 125 knots would cover the 2 km in 30 seconds before being hit on Syrian side......


What a lot of Turkish nonsense.

The videos clearly show that after it was shot (?) the chopper dropped like a stone directly on Syrian ground.

If it had been hit by a missile of an F-16 over Turkish ground it would have exploded then and there and it would not have been able to fly any distance back to Syrian air space. Generally, choppers, when shot, do not fly any distance before they start falling.

If am not wrong, this type of old Russian choppers (at least those operated by the Syrian Army) don’t have a warning system for incoming missiles. Therefore if the chopper had been hit by the missile of an F16, the pilots would have become toast before even realizing what had hit them.

Conclusion: It was hit over Syrian territory. Who by and what with? It remains to be seen. According to the initial reports it was hit by a portable a/a weapon of the Syrian opposition forces.

Why would Turkey shoot down a Syrian helicopter in Syrian air space or, why would Turkey claim the kill regardless of who did it? For any one or both of the following reasons:

1. To wash the shame of the downing of the Turkish F4 by the Syrians a few months ago or/and
2. A Turkish plan B: The Hyena concept: Having lost its chance to scavenge Syria further to American strikes, it will now try to provoke a direct strike against Turkey by Assad hoping to thus trigger a NATO intervention.

Oh and something more. Retrieve the black box? From an area controlled by the rebels as the videos show? Clever turkish thinking indeed!
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:47 am

Turkey only claimed that the helicopter ventured into Turkish airspace by about 2 kilometers.

They did not claim they shot it down in Turkish Airspace, but that the helicopter refused to comply with leaving Turkish Airspace. The helicopter was practically destroyed on the Syrian Border, probably trying to make a run for it but obviously it was too late.

Now, this is what I have been saying Greece should do to Turkey.

Greece could have shot down a few Turkish Aircraft over the last year, but sadly they are just pathetic! :roll:

Secondly, when news broke out that Syria shot down the Turkish Phantom, you muppets were rejoicing and creamed your undies. So what has changed? If you want to live by the sword, then you must be prepared to fall by the sword. You guys are just crying foul because the shoe is on other foot. If it was a Turkish Helicopter that was shot down, then no doubt you would be rejoicing once again. :lol:

Do you believe Turkey must be lieing and that Syria and Assad is the bastion of truth and honesty? Please explain yourselves because I am intrigued!

I am all up for a Turkey bash, because they occupy the RoC, but when discussing politics you better make sure you have balance, integrity, and maturity, because without these key elements you simply lose all your credibility.

At this point, I am fascinated with the inner workings of your brain/mentality! :?
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Kikapu » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:34 am

As far as I'm aware, I did not think any military aircraft had a "black box", as not to give any information to the enemy should the aircraft go down.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it actually.
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:30 am

Kikapu wrote:As far as I'm aware, I did not think any military aircraft had a "black box", as not to give any information to the enemy should the aircraft go down.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it actually.


Most Military Aircraft have "Black Boxes" (they are actually a very bright orange").

These boxes are covered under "The Secrets Act". If they crash for any reason it will be up to the Department of Defence if they are to allow the Regulator access.

If they fall into enemy hands, the "Black Box" would be of least concern considering the fact that there are other more sensitive systems on board.

The Turks and Syrians know exactly where the helicopter went. The Turks would have tracked it by radar and vectored their intercept aircraft right onto their target.

But there is no way they would release any information. Even less chance if there is something they are hiding.
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby kimon07 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:19 pm

Paphitis wrote:The Turks and Syrians know exactly where the helicopter went. The Turks would have tracked it by radar and vectored their intercept aircraft right onto their target.



You must be joking. Haven't you seen the videos? Syrian opposition were dancing over the wreckage minutes after it crashed. It was still burning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIJX0Qrgxs
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Re: The war against Syria

Postby Paphitis » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:43 pm

kimon07 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The Turks and Syrians know exactly where the helicopter went. The Turks would have tracked it by radar and vectored their intercept aircraft right onto their target.



You must be joking. Haven't you seen the videos? Syrian opposition were dancing over the wreckage minutes after it crashed. It was still burning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIJX0Qrgxs


Yes I am very serious kimon!

The video does not prove a thing so I do not understand how you can be so adament.

The rebels are also on the Turkish side of the border which explains quite a lot.

Common sense kimon!

If the Turks did it to avenge the Phantom, then they would have gone after a MIG not a helicopter.
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