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why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:22 am

Bananiot wrote:Use your brain Paphitis. The West has an important role for Turkey as a stabilising influence on the Arab world. Now, this role is even more important than before due to the Arab spring which is threatening to change the balances that were in place for many decades in this area which has been described as a powder cake. With Iran and now Syria in the limelight, that involves Russia as well (staunch supporter of Assad with naval bases in Syria), Turkey, whether we like it or not, carries a lot of clout within the EU and NATO. Cyprus would never have been allowed to join the EU had we not consented that we would work with Turkey towards solving the Cyprus issue. Then EU would never want to incorporate the Cyprus problem in its ranks and for this they curse us and it is not just Verheugen but the whole EU. Of course we still have Russia and China on our side (we got a nice loan from Russia just recently) but we played this game before and look where it got us to.


Don't patronize me Bananiot!

How stabilizing has Turkey been as of late? A bastion for security in the region you say when it threatens Israel and Cyprus with war over Natural Gas which will eventually supply the EU.

If Turkey carries a lot of clout, then they will announce an accession date and they will not have allow Cyprus in the EU to facilitate this. And they did not allow Cyprus in the EU with a guarantee to solve a problem that the RoC has absolutely no control of.

Yes the US wants to keep Turkey in check but no one is doing a very good job of that, and if necessary the west will abandon her especially if it keeps her antics up with Israel.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Kikapu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:59 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Bananiot wrote:Gunter Verheugen made a statement before the European Parliament on Wednesday April27 2004. He said that the EU was "deceived by the government of Cyprus" because it did not keep its commitment to accept the Annan plan. Verheugen thinks he was deceived because the Cyprus government pretended it wanted solution under the Annan plan only to achieve EU accession and when accession was achieved they went back on their commitments.

Verheugen is an idiot because the outcome of a democratic referendum can never be accurately predicted!


The GCs lied through their teeth and Verheugen the greatest supporter found out the hard way you cannot trust GCs

What did they lie about VP? :?


Wanting a solution.


Why didn't you want a solution to be based on "Fair & Just"? :roll:

You can thank Turkey for the AP failing by they asking everything under the sun, in which Papadopoulos went along with everything Turkey wanted, which you thought it was Christmas all over again so soon after the last one. That's how Papadopoulos outfoxed everyone.

You should have known, that "if something is too good to be true, it often is"! :wink:
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Bananiot » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:05 pm

Its not personal paphitis, but if you are one of those who think that Turkey is about to disintigrate, perhaps I have not done you any justice.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:27 pm

Bananiot wrote:Its not personal paphitis, but if you are one of those who think that Turkey is about to disintigrate, perhaps I have not done you any justice.


I didn't say Turkey was going to disintegrate, and yes nothing personal this end either.

I'm just not understanding your logic about Turkey's clout keeping the RoC out of the EU, or the EU seeking guarantees for a solution when everyone knew full well that the Annan Plan would go to a referendum. Also, I don't thing many people in the EU would be surprised at the fact that the Annan Plan was rejected.

If Turkey had as much clout as you say, then the RoC would never be allowed in the EU to begin with. One more thing. Turkey is not the trusted child of the west, in fact things have been changing steadily over the last 2 years. Turkey now has frosty relations with Israel, and I guarantee you that Israel has FAR MORE clout than Turkey does.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Kikapu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:52 pm

Bananiot wrote:This is a common secret:

Gunter Verheugen made a statement before the European Parliament on Wednesday April27 2004. He said that the EU was "deceived by the government of Cyprus" because it did not keep its commitment to accept the Annan plan. Verheugen thinks he was deceived because the Cyprus government pretended it wanted solution under the Annan plan only to achieve EU accession and when accession was achieved they went back on their commitments.

After the New York agreement, when Verheugen visited Cyprus on the day the talks started he said, after meeting Papadopoulos, that their meeting was brief because of "full agreement". What do you think they agreed on? Earlier, speaking in Brussels, Verheugen said" "Papadopoulos is telling all his visitors that he is ready to restart negotiations and he is looking to find a solution in the framework of the Annan plan" and put the responsibility exclusively on the other side. "Unfortunately I cannot say the same about Mr Denktash who clearly said the Annan plan was dead and no solution could be found in the framework of this plan." The solution "cannot be found with Mr Denktash, who thinks he can still drag the rest of the world by the nose for a long time".

Is this clear for you Paphitis? Do you still think that we entered the EU on our own merit?

We played a dirty trick on them, thinking that once inside, we can find a better, so called European solution. Papadopoulos and consequently Cyprus, lost all credibility through playing a game that may work fine in some coffee shop, high on the Troodos mountains, but once again we find ourselves on the receiving end of the stick and are widely considered as the black sheep of Europe.


Bananiot,

This is why it make sense that Greece helped Cyprus get into the EU, by threatening to use her veto power to prevent any enlargement unless Cyprus was also in the mix. We also know that Cyprus was not required to say YES on the Annan Plan as a condition to become a member despite what Gunter Verheugen says, because he was saying that "I personally felt cheated" and not saying that the EU was cheated. Cyprus also met ALL the criterias set by the EU to become a member so there was nothing to stop the RoC, but the RoC still could have been vetoed all the same by one or two EU members if they wanted, like the UK. So why did the countries in the EU who were loyal to Turkey to allow Cyprus in the club, they knowing full well that Cyprus would become a major obstacle to Turkey ever becoming an EU member in the future as long as Cyprus problem persisted, since Turkey really never wanted to solve the Cyprus problem, just because the status quo at the time suited Turkey just fine. The possible answer as to why these Turkey loyalist countries did not veto Cyprus is because they wanted the enlargement to take place of the other 9 countries, so Cyprus had to be let it also, but at the same time, the FIX was in to rob Cyprus of it's EU membership potentials to save Turkey, and the "Trojan Horse" that was going to damage the RoC, was the Annan Plan.

Bush, Blair, Erdogan, Verheugen and few others risked everything by placing ALL their bets on the Annan Plan, to get them out of the problem of letting Cyprus in, temperoraly, so they thought, because the moment the AP passes, Blair and Verheugen could have made the case to the EU, that since the passing of the AP, the RoC no longer existed and that now there was a new entity called the "United Cyprus", therefore, Cyprus no longer qualified to become an EU member, and if the new "United Cyprus" wanted to become an EU member, they would need to re-apply. That's why the referendum had to be done in a hurry just a short time before the RoC became a full EU member. This would have gotten Cyprus out of becoming an EU member as planned a week later and have also gotten Turkey off the hook and would have removed ALL Cyprus obstacles for own her EU membership, as well as established herself the main player in Cyprus affairs and a new "TC state" in the north, which would solely be controlled by Turkey herself. But the gamble did not pay off, because Papadopoulos "burnt the trojan horse" and the AP was dead on arrival with an OXI plea from him, not that there was ever a guarantee that the GCs would have agreed to the AP even if he kept his mouth shut. Had Turkey really wanted a workable solution, things may have been different, but at the same time, I don't see ANY EU members today complaining about the outcome of the AP, because it does mean keeping Turkey out until Turkey truly reforms internally and also solves the Cyprus problem to the satisfaction of the EU and the GCs and not just the TCs and herself!
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Bananiot » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:26 pm

Kikapu, there is a basic flaw in your argument. Greece was not and certainly is not now in any sort of position to threaten the EU. Greece could not and cannot present obstacles to the enlargement strategy of the EU. This said, one can argue that there were certain signs back at the turn of the century that the EU were greatly interested to get the Cyprus problem sorted out so that both Cyprus and later Turkey could get in. Even Denktash was sacrificed towards this end and no doubt, Cyprus did send signs that it would cooperate with the UN and EU for a compromise solution and this is what opened the door for the accession of Cyprus. Without this, Cyprus would not have become a member, there is no doubt in my mind. Papadopoulos, a staunch rejectionist of any compromise solution, spent the first 18 months of his tenure reassuring the world that he was ready to sign a comprehensive solution based on the Annan Plan. He knew what he was doing because he knew the score. He had to deceive the world, to get the RoC into the EU.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:29 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Bananiot wrote:This is a common secret:

Gunter Verheugen made a statement before the European Parliament on Wednesday April27 2004. He said that the EU was "deceived by the government of Cyprus" because it did not keep its commitment to accept the Annan plan. Verheugen thinks he was deceived because the Cyprus government pretended it wanted solution under the Annan plan only to achieve EU accession and when accession was achieved they went back on their commitments.

After the New York agreement, when Verheugen visited Cyprus on the day the talks started he said, after meeting Papadopoulos, that their meeting was brief because of "full agreement". What do you think they agreed on? Earlier, speaking in Brussels, Verheugen said" "Papadopoulos is telling all his visitors that he is ready to restart negotiations and he is looking to find a solution in the framework of the Annan plan" and put the responsibility exclusively on the other side. "Unfortunately I cannot say the same about Mr Denktash who clearly said the Annan plan was dead and no solution could be found in the framework of this plan." The solution "cannot be found with Mr Denktash, who thinks he can still drag the rest of the world by the nose for a long time".

Is this clear for you Paphitis? Do you still think that we entered the EU on our own merit?

We played a dirty trick on them, thinking that once inside, we can find a better, so called European solution. Papadopoulos and consequently Cyprus, lost all credibility through playing a game that may work fine in some coffee shop, high on the Troodos mountains, but once again we find ourselves on the receiving end of the stick and are widely considered as the black sheep of Europe.


Bananiot,

This is why it make sense that Greece helped Cyprus get into the EU, by threatening to use her veto power to prevent any enlargement unless Cyprus was also in the mix. We also know that Cyprus was not required to say YES on the Annan Plan as a condition to become a member despite what Gunter Verheugen says, because he was saying that "I personally felt cheated" and not saying that the EU was cheated. Cyprus also met ALL the criterias set by the EU to become a member so there was nothing to stop the RoC, but the RoC still could have been vetoed all the same by one or two EU members if they wanted, like the UK. So why did the countries in the EU who were loyal to Turkey to allow Cyprus in the club, they knowing full well that Cyprus would become a major obstacle to Turkey ever becoming an EU member in the future as long as Cyprus problem persisted, since Turkey really never wanted to solve the Cyprus problem, just because the status quo at the time suited Turkey just fine. The possible answer as to why these Turkey loyalist countries did not veto Cyprus is because they wanted the enlargement to take place of the other 9 countries, so Cyprus had to be let it also, but at the same time, the FIX was in to rob Cyprus of it's EU membership potentials to save Turkey, and the "Trojan Horse" that was going to damage the RoC, was the Annan Plan.

Bush, Blair, Erdogan, Verheugen and few others risked everything by placing ALL their bets on the Annan Plan, to get them out of the problem of letting Cyprus in, temperoraly, so they thought, because the moment the AP passes, Blair and Verheugen could have made the case to the EU, that since the passing of the AP, the RoC no longer existed and that now there was a new entity called the "United Cyprus", therefore, Cyprus no longer qualified to become an EU member, and if the new "United Cyprus" wanted to become an EU member, they would need to re-apply. That's why the referendum had to be done in a hurry just a short time before the RoC became a full EU member. This would have gotten Cyprus out of becoming an EU member as planned a week later and have also gotten Turkey off the hook and would have removed ALL Cyprus obstacles for own her EU membership, as well as established herself the main player in Cyprus affairs and a new "TC state" in the north, which would solely be controlled by Turkey herself. But the gamble did not pay off, because Papadopoulos "burnt the trojan horse" and the AP was dead on arrival with an OXI plea from him, not that there was ever a guarantee that the GCs would have agreed to the AP even if he kept his mouth shut. Had Turkey really wanted a workable solution, things may have been different, but at the same time, I don't see ANY EU members today complaining about the outcome of the AP, because it does mean keeping Turkey out until Turkey truly reforms internally and also solves the Cyprus problem to the satisfaction of the EU and the GCs and not just the TCs and herself!


Excellent analysis, Kiks.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Bananiot wrote:This is a common secret:

Gunter Verheugen made a statement before the European Parliament on Wednesday April27 2004. He said that the EU was "deceived by the government of Cyprus" because it did not keep its commitment to accept the Annan plan. Verheugen thinks he was deceived because the Cyprus government pretended it wanted solution under the Annan plan only to achieve EU accession and when accession was achieved they went back on their commitments.

After the New York agreement, when Verheugen visited Cyprus on the day the talks started he said, after meeting Papadopoulos, that their meeting was brief because of "full agreement". What do you think they agreed on? Earlier, speaking in Brussels, Verheugen said" "Papadopoulos is telling all his visitors that he is ready to restart negotiations and he is looking to find a solution in the framework of the Annan plan" and put the responsibility exclusively on the other side. "Unfortunately I cannot say the same about Mr Denktash who clearly said the Annan plan was dead and no solution could be found in the framework of this plan." The solution "cannot be found with Mr Denktash, who thinks he can still drag the rest of the world by the nose for a long time".

Is this clear for you Paphitis? Do you still think that we entered the EU on our own merit?

We played a dirty trick on them, thinking that once inside, we can find a better, so called European solution. Papadopoulos and consequently Cyprus, lost all credibility through playing a game that may work fine in some coffee shop, high on the Troodos mountains, but once again we find ourselves on the receiving end of the stick and are widely considered as the black sheep of Europe.


Bananiot,

This is why it make sense that Greece helped Cyprus get into the EU, by threatening to use her veto power to prevent any enlargement unless Cyprus was also in the mix. We also know that Cyprus was not required to say YES on the Annan Plan as a condition to become a member despite what Gunter Verheugen says, because he was saying that "I personally felt cheated" and not saying that the EU was cheated. Cyprus also met ALL the criterias set by the EU to become a member so there was nothing to stop the RoC, but the RoC still could have been vetoed all the same by one or two EU members if they wanted, like the UK. So why did the countries in the EU who were loyal to Turkey to allow Cyprus in the club, they knowing full well that Cyprus would become a major obstacle to Turkey ever becoming an EU member in the future as long as Cyprus problem persisted, since Turkey really never wanted to solve the Cyprus problem, just because the status quo at the time suited Turkey just fine. The possible answer as to why these Turkey loyalist countries did not veto Cyprus is because they wanted the enlargement to take place of the other 9 countries, so Cyprus had to be let it also, but at the same time, the FIX was in to rob Cyprus of it's EU membership potentials to save Turkey, and the "Trojan Horse" that was going to damage the RoC, was the Annan Plan.

Bush, Blair, Erdogan, Verheugen and few others risked everything by placing ALL their bets on the Annan Plan, to get them out of the problem of letting Cyprus in, temperoraly, so they thought, because the moment the AP passes, Blair and Verheugen could have made the case to the EU, that since the passing of the AP, the RoC no longer existed and that now there was a new entity called the "United Cyprus", therefore, Cyprus no longer qualified to become an EU member, and if the new "United Cyprus" wanted to become an EU member, they would need to re-apply. That's why the referendum had to be done in a hurry just a short time before the RoC became a full EU member. This would have gotten Cyprus out of becoming an EU member as planned a week later and have also gotten Turkey off the hook and would have removed ALL Cyprus obstacles for own her EU membership, as well as established herself the main player in Cyprus affairs and a new "TC state" in the north, which would solely be controlled by Turkey herself. But the gamble did not pay off, because Papadopoulos "burnt the trojan horse" and the AP was dead on arrival with an OXI plea from him, not that there was ever a guarantee that the GCs would have agreed to the AP even if he kept his mouth shut. Had Turkey really wanted a workable solution, things may have been different, but at the same time, I don't see ANY EU members today complaining about the outcome of the AP, because it does mean keeping Turkey out until Turkey truly reforms internally and also solves the Cyprus problem to the satisfaction of the EU and the GCs and not just the TCs and herself!


Can you post any evidence that Greece actually did threaten to veto EU enlargement for Cyprus? Did they do this before Cyprus opened the first EU Acquis Chapters a number of years earlier?

I ask because Greece would have made that threat before the EU Parliament and so this threat should be recorded in Hansard!

Any links?
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:55 pm

boomerang wrote:... as we all know greece's insignifigance in world affairs ...


We're not talking about 'world affairs' but EU affairs and you cannot trivialise Greece's position in the EU nor it's veto power nor it's significant membership of the eurozone.

There is no doubt that Cyprus satisfied all the required criteria and closed some chapters significantly faster than others. But that is NOT all that was required since Cyprus came with baggage (40,000 Turkish troops, illegal settlers, Turkey blackmails etc), with which a lot of members did not wish to be saddled and they were prepared to wait until 'reunification' was settled.

But Cyprus did get in despite this handicap. So "why" you ask ...

Greece Would Veto EU Enlargement Without Cyprus
by Harry Charalambous, Tax-News.com, Nicosia
09 May 2001

During an official visit by Cyprus President Glafcos Clerides to Athens, Greek leaders reaffirmed their support for Cyprus during the EU enlargement process. Greek President Costis Stephanopoulos repeated after his talks with President Clerides on Wednesday that Greece would veto the projected expansion of the European Union if Cyprus was excluded.



http://www.tax-news.com/news/Greece_Wou ... _3463.html

This confronts the Union with a dilemma. Admitting a divided island would enrage and possibly destabilise Turkey, an important strategic partner. That is reason enough for many existing members to oppose the idea; indeed the Dutch Parliament has passed a resolution saying that it would vote against any enlargement that included a divided Cyprus. But the Greeks are equally adamant that their bit of Cyprus must be allowed into the Union. The Greek Parliament would very likely veto any enlargement that keeps Cyprus out.

The top ranks of the EU are utterly divided on what to do. One senior EU official says that, faced with the certainty of a Greek veto of enlargement, the EU would have to let in a divided Cyprus because “we simply cannot let the whole of Central Europe be held hostage by the Cyprus question.” Across the road, another top official says it is “inconceivable” that the EU would let in a divided Cyprus.

http://www.economist.com/node/622819

GR! is correct in saying that after 1999 it was agreed that 'reunification' would not be a prerequisite for Cyprus' accession, but it was Greece's threat of a veto which achieved this even then.

Not only this, but Greece was also instrumental in preventing trade agreements between the Turks in the occupied region and other EU countries for export of agricultural goods.
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Re: why was the roc allowed to join the EU?

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:12 pm

The above links are insignificant for the following reasons:

a) there is no evidence to suggest that the EU was not going to admit Cyprus into the EU even before there is a solution, and
b) no one has provided a relevant link from a reliable source such as the European Parliament whereby Greece formerly threatened to veto EU enlargement!

Hearsay just doesn't cut the mustard!

We need quotes from high ranking Greek Officials such as the Foreign Affairs Minister, the Prime Minister or other EU MPs making an official statement within the European Parliament or anywhere else regarding this veto!

The President of Greece telling Clerides that Greece will veto during his coffee visit is irrelevant because The President of Greece is a ceremonial figure that can not make any decisions on Greece's behalf. If it were the Prime Minister, then that is a different matter entirely.

The rest is hogwash I'm afraid!
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